Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! | Dark Humor Conversations On Mental Health, Trauma & Society
If you live with mental illness — or love someone who does — and you’re tired of sugar-coated wellness talk, this show is for you.
Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast with dark humor and lived-experience truth. We tell it like it is, so you don’t have to.
Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) and frequently joined by co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we have brutally honest conversations about serious mental illness, trauma, and the real-world systems that shape mental health. Topics include schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, psychosis, bipolar disorder, BPD, PTSD, depression, anxiety, addiction recovery, religious trauma, psychiatric medication, disability, good therapy, bad therapy, psych wards, and practical real-world coping — plus relationships, family dysfunction, work, creativity, and society.
You’ll hear:
- Lived-experience perspective from someone navigating psychosis, relapse, parenting, and recovery in real time.
- No-BS conversations about what helps, what doesn’t, and what the mental health stigma gets wrong.
- Dark humor and honest storytelling that educates and humanizes instead of sensationalizing.
- Interviews with everyday people, professionals, and notable guests, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are.
This show is for anyone trying to survive therapy, meds, trauma, and everyday chaos — or trying to understand a loved one who is. If you want language for what you’re experiencing, conversations that don’t flinch, and a judgment-free vibe with some laughs along the way, you’re in the right place.
We’re not your therapists — we’re fellow passengers on “The Struggle Bus,” sharing what we’ve learned the hard way and refusing to suffer in silence.
Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! | Dark Humor Conversations On Mental Health, Trauma & Society
ADHD, Drumming & Creative Coping | Jay Fenichel
Explore the unique ways drumming can serve as a powerful focus tool for those with ADHD/ADD, enhancing attention and creativity.
In this episode of "Beat The Mental Health Out Of It!", we delve into how rhythm acts as a coping mechanism for mental health challenges.
We discuss burnout-proof practices and teaching methods that foster intrinsic motivation instead of obligation.
Join us for candid conversations about using structured practice—such as metronome drills and groove ladders—as 'psych first aid' for attention issues.
We cover essential topics like setting realistic boundaries for creators and parents, balancing goals versus life hacks, and nurturing young musicians through supportive relationships rather than strict perfectionism.
Whether you're a parent, educator, or musician yourself, this episode offers enlightening insights into creativity as a therapeutic tool.
HEY DRUMMERS! Try a 5-minute metronome focus drill (60–80 BPM, 3×1-min singles w/30s rest). Post your “before/after focus rating” on our Discord "The Struggle Bus." (link below)
Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.
Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.
We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.
New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.
Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA
All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI
Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning
...This is the podcast, the one, the only bottom hooy, aka. Beat the mental health out of it. With your hosts, we got the Defective Schizo Effective here and Andy Pocket. And we have an amazingly incredible special guest with us. You're gonna love this guy. The amazing Jay Finishel. I said that right, right?
SPEAKER_05:Dang it. Crap!
SPEAKER_03:Is it more like um? Well, the accent's just in the Spanish L.
SPEAKER_06:Right, it's finishing.
SPEAKER_03:Finish a crap.
SPEAKER_04:So it's like it's exactly like the game. It's like Mortal Kombat. Mortal Kombat Finish L.
SPEAKER_01:Yes! That's a great little video.
SPEAKER_04:You're welcome. If one good thing came out of this podcast, it's it.
SPEAKER_05:What's your last thing? Finish L.
SPEAKER_03:Damn it, man. Just pull the spine right out through the mouth.
SPEAKER_04:I was so mad because I was practicing that 60 times before the freaking you know, that's the that's the brand. Um so welcome, welcome. Great to have you, man.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_04:So if you would like to give yourself a quick intro, um, then we can move on to the meat of everything. And uh yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Okay. So yeah, my name is Jay Fanishelle. Uh, I'm a drummer. I've been playing for about 40 years. I started when I was eight years old. So if you could do that math, then uh, you know, that's good. And um, yeah, I've got to do that.
SPEAKER_04:You don't do math, you're not a math jammer. Also, you might know him as drummer's almanac. Yeah. I mean, not that you guys know who the hell he is. Oh, yeah, he's not famous. He's not way shaped. He's not one of the biggest social media guys. No.
SPEAKER_01:Goodness, goodness, goodness.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, so right. The drummer's almanac was actually my website, and I've gotten some flack about that too, guys. I've gotten people been like, oh, this guy, this guy thinks he's the drummer's almanac. That was my website name, so that's why it was my handle.
SPEAKER_02:Accurate, accurate. People can be yeah. So continue. Sorry, we didn't we didn't mean to interrupt.
SPEAKER_06:So yeah, no, so I've been playing drones my whole life. I went to college, I got a jazz degree from SUNY Purchase, the state university in New York. Um, you know, and ever since then I've been touring and playing and I'm doing the wedding thing, pretty much anything you could do to survive. You know, um, got to social media probably only about 2017, I think I started doing it, when one of my students was like, Jay, you should be on social media. I don't know that's where everybody is. How come you're not there? Um and I argued with him because I'm kind of old school and I was not into any of that. I didn't know what a tic tac was. I didn't know what a uh Tic Tac Did you say Tic Tac? Tic Tac. Yeah, I was like, What's a tic-tac?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, that's pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_06:He's like, Oh, you gotta be on TikTok, you gotta be on Instagram. I'm like, I had a Facebook and I had a YouTube. And um, yeah, I I I had uploaded one video to YouTube in 2006. One of my students did it. Okay. Yeah, so because again, I didn't know what I was doing. So I had this my student Ben, uh, he's he was like, you know, 12 years old at that time, and 11 or 12. And he's like, Jay, there's this video thing. There's this video thing on it's called YouTube. You could put up a video and you should put drum videos up there. And I'm like, uh, but you know, but I had done a video for MI. I was thinking about going back to MI for like kind of like a journeyman masters type of thing. Uh yeah, so I made a video. I did like a Chicory of Spain thing that I was doing with a trio I had back in that day. And uh Yeah, so I had this video and I gave it to him and he uploaded it to this new platform called YouTube. And then I didn't look at it again for about 10 years. And next time I looked at it, it had about 350,000 views on it. And I was like, Wow, nice. Oh, but again, still didn't care. I was still like, oh, that's cool, you know. I had no idea like what why the value in it. I didn't see any uh and uh yeah, so my one student in 2017 was like, Jay, you gotta you gotta put yourself out there. Um so he turned me on to Gary Vaynertruck. Do you guys know who Gary Vaynertruck is? He's like an internet like No, actually no. Yeah, oh you should if you if you're into the internet and into building a podcast and into you know getting yourself out there, Gary V, I started following him. Gary V. Gary V. Gary V is for short. But yeah, I mean he's the he's the internet um social media guru that everybody, you know, that kind of took over the internet.
SPEAKER_04:I think I may, I may actually maybe know the name. I'm not gonna pontificate here. Thanks, Chris. Yeah. Um well that was it.
SPEAKER_06:No, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_04:I will look him up.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I started started watching his videos. I started, I got a couple of his books, I started reading it, and I was like, this is making a lot of sense. And it just changed my whole and so I just went all in. I just started going all in on social media and kind of, you know, it sucked in the beginning for like two years. It just sucked and no traction, and you know, you're you're doing it every day, you're you're schlagging, thinking that your videos feel great. Oh, I'm gonna do this great exercise, and people are gonna love it, you know, and then nobody would watch. You'd get like 20 minutes, you know. That's what it was like. So I started this whole pajama practice series. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get in silly pajamas and do practicing in the morning, and all these people are gonna sign up and practice with it. Nobody cared. Um that's what it was. So then one day, uh, in that effort of just continuing to do content, uh, I my my in-laws were visiting. I was in Atlanta at the time, and we were living in Atlanta, and um, you know, we were out the whole day. We went to dinner, we did a bunch of stuff, and it was getting late, like nine or ten o'clock, and I'm like, I gotta, I need some content, and I just gotta I gotta get something done. So I went downstairs, I set up a couple of pads, and I just did an exercise, like a little polyrhythm exercise that I did in college that I used to do as a warm-up. And I was like, Yeah, just have to put something up. And I did it, took two tapes, got it done, put it up, went to bed. I woke up the next day and it had like 250,000 views on it.
SPEAKER_00:And overnight.
SPEAKER_06:Overnight. And I had about 67,000 followers from like 200. It was like wow, yeah, it was good. And that was TikTok. That was like and I was like, again, what is this TikTok nonsense that I'm I'm doing? No idea what it you know gotten. So that was like kind of like the start of it. And once I got a little taste that I that it could happen like that, that's when I started branching out to YouTube and going into Instagram and you know, kind of going into it.
SPEAKER_03:I see that what he's got the YouTube flag back.
SPEAKER_06:That's uh that's my hundred thousand dollar uh hundred thousand dollar, yeah, right. 100,000 subscriber plaque is what that is.
SPEAKER_04:And that's from YouTube? That's awesome.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, that's that's my this is what they send you when you reach uh 100k.
SPEAKER_04:Don't break it, don't break it, don't drop it. I have these 15 10 commandments.
SPEAKER_06:I'll never be able to get it back on the wall again. So I hope you guys appreciate what I just did for you.
SPEAKER_04:Wow, wow, we have pre secondary moment on the podcast. Your sacrifice. We appreciate. Do you not have one for like TikTok? Because you got what, 135k on there?
SPEAKER_06:TikTok and Instagram doesn't do that. They don't give you anything. You don't get anything when you get a certain they don't care, basically.
SPEAKER_03:So, okay. So why why do this whole internet thing? If you if you I mean, I know that the monetize thing is is part of it. I'm just gonna jump right in. But yeah, why do it? Because I know they've they've even restructured that recently.
SPEAKER_06:The monetization has never been good. Not organically, anyway. Um, that's something I learned. So, I mean, you have to be doing a lot of views. I mean, I have maybe I have a little bit over 100,000 on each platform, but organically that probably translates to a couple hundred dollars a platform a month for me. I don't really make a lot that way. Uh, and that's just with whatever their ads are, and you know, and I don't really do a lot of like ad videos where like I do collaborations with people because I like to keep it in the niche. You go too far outside of drumming. And uh, and then the thing with the drum companies is I a lot of them will send you gear, but they don't want to pay you. They'll just be like, we'll send you symbols, which is you know, again, I'll do that. But it's not so often it's not so often that I'm I'm really seeing any any kind of bread that way. You know, so the the creators that are really making money are the ones that are really getting really high traction and and their niche is so broad that they could they could they could sell a toothbrush and then they could sell you know a knife set, and then they could turn around and they could sell a sander, and then they could say, Oh, yeah, I got this change. Those are the guys that really can just and because their following is big, they're selling that stuff. Right. But it's still hard.
SPEAKER_03:But on that note, I'd like to bring in my new uh no, I'm just kidding. We're sponsored by Mountain Dew in a pink cup. Um but but I do want to thank you for being so open about that because I know that and and you're a teacher, we we've all taught. There's this perception, you know, like we grew up, we're like, oh, I want to tour, I want to be a rock star, I want to be on stage. And now it's oh, I want to be an influencer, I want to be on tick on the Tiki Tok or YouTube or whatever. And they think that that's gonna bring in millions. So I love that you were so open about it. Thank you. You didn't even have to go quite that far, but I really genuinely appreciate that you're helping dispel like this. This is a great way to create community, this is a great way to disseminate information and to really make those connections. Like the industry got a lot smaller when the internet came in for sure, but it's not the end all be all answer to making a living. So I I love that you already brought up.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, you gotta do other things, you gotta do other things. I mean, so basically I look like the internet is kind of like the beacon, it's the sign that says here, who, this is who I am, here I am, check out my stuff. And that's your business card. Right, your business card. And then from there, you know, someone goes to Google me about lessons, they're like the Google just explodes. And it's like, I've got 100,000 subscribers here, and then here's a bunch of videos, and here's the, you know, versus if like a drummer is great, and I know a lot of great drummers that are just absolutely fantastic, but you Google them and it's like a it's a ghost thing. Right. With lessons, it turns into a trust thing. So when they they Google me, it's like, oh, okay, this guy is for real because he's got all this stuff. A million things come up. Um, another thing I was finding when I first started blowing up a little bit on the internet was students, I was getting students from all over the world. I started doing it like this, like digitally. And um, my rates, my rates were kind of still local rates. You know, they were just everybody else was kind of doing, you know, and I hadn't raised my rates in a long time. And I remember a couple of guys were like, Yeah, I'm in I'm in Germany and I want to take a lesson with you. We could do it over Zoom. And then I I gave them my rate, and they're like, Oh, really? That's all?
SPEAKER_01:I know.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I was gonna go on.
SPEAKER_03:No, wait, let me uh did I say um no add a zero under?
SPEAKER_04:That's funny. Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting you bring that up because um I don't know if you follow Tommy Igo on Instagram.
SPEAKER_05:I love Tommy. I do see, but I I love him. I do.
SPEAKER_04:He is so he did a post, and I want to know honestly if you've had a similar thing. He did a post where he's like, Look, unless you pay me some money, quit sending me your freaking drum videos for me to um to critique and give you feedback and give you lessons on. He said, if you want to spend good money, you'll get a good lesson, but quit sending me videos to critique. I get them every day.
SPEAKER_05:Every day. I'm sure you do. I'm sure.
SPEAKER_04:And I assume you can't remotely offer that.
SPEAKER_06:I mean No, I mean, in the beginning, because like when it first started happening, the first couple I might have done it where I, you know, because I I like to help and I like to, but when it starts becoming like really crazy, after a while, you gotta like kind of just shut it off and kind of pick your spots because you get all these DMs. And you don't know who's on the other end of that DM. That's the other thing. There's a lot of for for the sake of this, what we're doing here, there's a lot of crazies out there.
SPEAKER_04:You know, that'll you're on the right podcast. You're on the right podcast. Welcome, welcome. Um no, thank you for being so open about all of that. I I think that's that's so neat. Um, and just plays into who you are as a person, how genuine. And P.S.
SPEAKER_03:We're both really big fans.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Listen, likewise, like love hearing this kind of candor from someone who we can look at and go, wow, like he's got it all together. And like, and I know on your end, you're like, I'm doing a shit by the seat of my pants, but it's like, you know, out here it it you really do do, you put out very polished product. Um, when it's clearly not meant to be polished, that that comes through like you're just like poking fun at or whatever. But you put out such great content. And I mean, I know I came late to the party with TikTok. I'm like, what is this TikTok? Well, it used to be music league. Yeah, whatever. Get just get away from me with this shit. Um, pardon my whatever. Um, but when I first got on, you were one of maybe the first six videos that ever popped up. And it was one of your polyrhythms. And I'm like, whatever, polyrhythm, full, useless. And then you um not much later came out with the one where it's a really grooving tune, and you put like seven on the symbol. And do you know the one I'm talking about? Yeah. Holy cow. Like, I dropped the chalupa at that point. That was so awesome. Such so musical. And to show the application of all these things you've been putting out there that have been making us all go, oh, you're making our brains hurt. But to show us that it really truly does add a musical touch and you can take it to another level and still be relatable to a listener. True. Sure. That's that's far and away, you know, a bigger accomplishment than some of my heroes, you know, before you that's not that's huge. Thank you. So I I absolutely thank you. You're welcome, and thank you. I I think your channel, I mean, there are other channels that occasionally come out of this guy's mouth that run the ridiculous side of things. Are we talking? Yeah, we are. You don't have to say it. But we all know him. I think, and and no, no shade at all on his he is amazing. But I think Do you know who we're talking about?
SPEAKER_06:Alice Tapiro Saberano.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, wow, okay. He said the name. He said, Oh no. Okay, can I clarify? Can I?
SPEAKER_06:I love Alice Topari. Listen, I think so. He he wins the internet as far as I'm concerned, as far as drummers go. For sure.
SPEAKER_04:But yeah. I can I can I comment candidly? I think he's I love his what he's done. Legit. Yeah, he's entertaining for sure. He is such an entertainer.
SPEAKER_06:Um and I've never met him. I've never met him, not to cut you off, I'm sorry. Um but I know I I I know a a couple of friends of mine that did meet him that have like hung with him and just said he is the sweetest, nicest, most down-to-earth dude.
SPEAKER_04:I bet he is. I've never doubted it. That comes through.
SPEAKER_06:And I'm like, and I'm like, that's a that's amazing. So that makes me happy that he's like a totally cool dude.
SPEAKER_04:I it does seem like a lot of that is kind of a persona, um, which I appreciate. The the only thing, and I mean this, it's not against him. Yeah, the smoking, those uh the only thing that is the the perfection, and I wanted to get into this with you, Jay, and then we need to get into some other things. Oh, yes, sorry.
SPEAKER_03:But just from the yeah, no, you're the you're the host. I'm just, you know, I look pretty.
SPEAKER_04:That's accurate. Um so you know, the the thing I struggle with Els Els El Estipario is the the bar he set. Um, you know, and he's very open about doing 100 to 150 takes for that perfection. Um there's no judgment behind that. The dude puts in the work to get that. I think, and I've heard it from students I had at where I used to work. Um and even still, it's like that bar is of the perfection, and I think that's becoming a thing in general with social media. You got these guys who are adding MIDI drums to their tracks to make it sound perfect. And you know, um post-edits.
SPEAKER_06:You could get it in the stuff and beat doctoring, and you could hear the beat doctoring. I mean, I'm I would never call anybody out, but there's definitely videos where I I could see the technique, yeah, and I'm watching the technique, and I'm like, what sound is happening and what technique is happening, that ain't happening in the room.
SPEAKER_04:There's no way and the thing I'll give Ellis Ellis DePaprio credit for is it's all legit. Everything he does is spot on. Yeah. The only issue I take, and it's not even his fault at all, it's just what he's kind of said is that trend of perfection. And I literally had students that were like, well, shit, I ain't never gonna hit that. Right. And people give up. And people give up, or they go to the point where they doctor their performances up. Yeah. I'm not talking my shit up at all because there's plenty of drummers who blow my ass out of the water, you two, when we guards.
SPEAKER_06:I've been following a bunch of your videos, Nick.
SPEAKER_04:You were I noticed, and I I can't tell you how much it means to me that you have liked and even commented. That means so much to me. Really, it does. To have two world-class drummers. Just quit. Not in public, Tony. We talked about that. Sorry, Sonny. Um No, but like to have two world-class drummers so so positive on that. But there's nothing doctored on mine. You hear every mistake, you hear but my my content's not about the perfection. It's about showing the joy of playing. All those are one single take. I I maybe practice it a handful of times, turn on the camera, it's just one take, and how it comes out, it comes out. Process Process over product. Um and that's kind of what we well. You're probably not so much. I think you know, you're you're he he's finally kind of like your student did for you. I was looking at him the whole time because I've been doing the same damn thing for him. I'm like, dude, he's been beating.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Imagine you're old school like me, and it was like it was kicking and screaming to get into this stuff. Because I I am a player. I was not a social media guy, I was not like a juggler, I was not I'm not a twirl guy, you know. I'm not gonna sit there and I'm not that bad, dude. Um, you know, it's like I understand though, from again, studying from Gary V and then studying the the whole process, and then it's just knowing the outcome. Um as far as the perfection thing, yes, people will jump all over you in the comments if you're not perfect. But something I learned from a teacher of mine that said it's great, great thing he said. If you don't pretend to be perfect, you don't have to be. And that always stuck with me. That was always like that.
SPEAKER_01:I certainly you're human.
SPEAKER_06:You say, you know, someone said, Oh, that wasn't perfect. That polyrhythm movie between the four and five was a little it swung a little bit.
SPEAKER_04:I'm glad you mentioned that because I've hard I have hardcore seen you post the reaction videos to mofos who are like, oh you weren't on the click there, and you're like, well, let me do it to a click for you. I love that. I love that you don't even take the bullshit. And you do it from a point of illustrating, honestly, the point you just said. It's like, you know, you're you're doing what was it? You did one, was it 13 against 14? 13 against 14, and the guy was like, I don't know about that one.
SPEAKER_06:And you're like, well, let me could I tell you about that? Very this is crazy, too. And I got I'm glad I have the opportunity to do this because I actually meant to do a follow up to it. Like a week later, after I did that 13 and 14 one, and I was trying not to be a jerk to the guy, I was like, the guy's just you know, but he he it wasn't like one comment. It was like a But but here's the thing, uh you know, let's let's talk about that first, and then I'm gonna get into why I do what I do with that stuff. Um okay, but this guy wrote me a private message on Instagram or something, a DM. Uh and he's like, Jay, I just want to let you know that I watched the reaction that you did, and after watching it and seeing how you did it, I don't know what I was thinking. I was a hundred percent wrong, and I'm just so sorry. And he just this giant apology. I don't expect you to take the video down or anything. I understand why you did it, and I don't know what the hell I, you know, but it was like this whole like he owned it. Like this is the only time it's ever happened in my life where somebody usually just wow, you know, this guy completely and I was like, wow, man, like that, like listen, I don't know who you are. Obviously, you're just another guy on the internet. But the fact that you like wrote me that message and owned it, that's pretty cool. You know, I've just never experienced that. That's never happened before. But to the reason why I even respond, because so many people say to me, Why do you respond to these guys? And it's going back to Estepario and all these other guys that are on it. The outcome of social media is attention. We're trying to build attention.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_06:So people say to me, Why don't you just for your mental health? Why don't you just block these guys? Why don't you just ignore them? Because they're giving you their attention, and their attention is so much more engaging than fans.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, you're spot on. Yeah, absolutely. That's that was the cancer episode. Yep.
SPEAKER_06:That's so so a fan is gonna say, Jay, this was great. I loved it. Thank you so much. And I'll say, thanks, man, thanks for following. I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_03:That's end of conversation. End of conversation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:You know, they're gonna say, This video is completely inaccurate. I reply, why? Question mark. And then it's sorry. It's like fishing, you know, it's like fishing for trolls. That's the way I look at it. It's like fishing for trolls. And you know, then exactly. And if you just you kind of you kind of needle them just enough to keep them talking, you know, and they'll I have some of them that are like a hundred comments deep on my videos, like videos that probably would have gotten maybe a couple of thousand, ended up getting like 10 or 15,000 because of one person that was engaging and engaging and engaging. You know, and and if your skin is thick, because you do have to have a thick, thick skin, you can't let it bother you, you know. But I look at it as every it's it's like you're racking points. Every time someone comments, this the troll comments, it's like you're getting another point. And then if you could just keep them commenting, keep them commenting, keep them commenting.
SPEAKER_04:That is okay, that's wow.
SPEAKER_06:And if you don't want to end the thread, you tell them what you're doing. You turn around and say, Okay, you know, really, I'm milking you for engagement. You understand what's happening here. You just gave me a hundred comments and you just exploded my video. Thank you so much. And it's flipped the whole, you see what I'm saying? And it's like so that that's that's that's the psychology of it. And and guys like Estopario, they they understand that, and and he does what he does with the outrageous stuff that he does because he understands it's about it's about the engagement. Now he's probably game. Yeah, he's probably making money. I think I I don't know what he makes.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I'm probably he is. I will say that my favorite video from Elisapario was his outtakes where he's punching the floor, hungering breaking sticks, showing, and and that to me really like that's yeah, I can watch his videos and go, fucker is just so perfect. But then on the other end, it's like when you show me that side, now I have complete respect for what you do because he's not he I a lot of people will, you know, push it up and say that oh, he's perfect and all, but even he admits he's not, you know, and I I've seen other things that were pre-Tik Tock of him, and they're not perfect either. And he freely admits that. So I love that, and I think he's been great, especially for drumself. He's put drumming to the forefront like hasn't been seen in in years. Yeah, he did. Probably since Buddy. Since like Buddy, I mean Buddy was a personality, and so is Ellis Tapario. And I would argue even Jay Fettershell is as well. I I mean, I love the that when you come in with these, I mean, you're a serious teacher. That's one of the things that I uh that was drawn to you immediately, and then I'll let you get to the actual interview story. But I'm gonna fan a fan geek on my own. But you you are full-on world-class player. I I I see that, right? But you also don't mind getting into the the small the minutia of music and really trying to explain to that guy in the back of the room who doesn't have a clue what you just played, so that when he walks walks out of the class, the video, he he takes something away from it. Like you're you genuinely give a piece of yourself. Yeah. So performance is great. And that's Ellis Depario to me. Like he is a great performer. Entertainment for days. Yeah. But you can entertain, and then I've also seen you break something down to such a simple level. Like honestly, I I mean, I could do my two against three, my three against four, and occasionally could put a five in somewhere. But it's been since you that I've really started to look into and try to use that on the kit in musical ways. Because before that, I mean, everybody's like, oh, you have to check out the Gary Chafee book, you have to do all this to get into the polyrhythmic side of things. And I'm like, I don't want to do a million exercises because I'm not gonna use it that much.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and then of course you had like Marco Miniman doing like the which was a brilliant exercise.
SPEAKER_06:And that's the that's a great point, Nick. You know, is is that some people have it to that level where they are used, like the Marc Julianas and like guys like uh Marco Minimums, like another one, uh Virgil Donati. I mean, Virgil's got it, he's got that stuff dialed in so tight. Um, but it only works in certain situations for what he's doing. He makes it happen. You know, he creates some Marco Minimums like that too. Um but what I try to tell people is that not to put the polyrhythm stuff on a pedestal, it's just rhythm, like any rhythm. Yeah, it's just it's just understanding that they're in between the standard rhythms that we all know. Everything's technically a polyrhythm, every everything, even the simple stuff. But these are just you know, it's it's the dialing up the speed and dialing back the speed so you get this elastic thing, and it just happens in between the rhythms, right? So if you figure it like that, then it doesn't have to be like this complicated five over four, because the audience doesn't know, and this is what I say to all my students the audience doesn't know that you're playing a five over four. They hear that it slowed down a little bit. That's what they hear.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_06:So if you can control that, you know, that's what it is. That's all it is.
SPEAKER_03:And if you're making mus and if you're making music, you understand that tension and release is a big part of creating an emotion in a listener. So that that's beautiful that you break it down to I'm geeking out over here. This is great. Like I'm having a do you need a moment?
SPEAKER_04:I need a moment. Uh give me five. Um come back with a cigarette. That was great. Um, so let's begin the interview. No, no, no. That no, this is great. Keep this shit going. No, what I was gonna say is that um your your polyrhythms made me want to quit doing polyrhythm. No. You get opposite effects. No, no, no, no. Um, what I kind of made the realization of recently is that I kind of decided um what I did not want to put the time into. And to me, life choices. Yeah, fair enough. Um, I decided that, you know, putting, you know, the fives against whatever isn't really something I want to put the time into. Instead, I recently, promotion for you, just did your Chops Builder uh course that you you have. And boy, that was great. Um I've seen very few Chops Builder courses that just lay it out like that. Uh the building blocks, and it was really I don't want to give it away. Hopefully you're I don't know if you're still throwing out there or what, but oh my goodness, I I still work from that. The only thing I've seen come close to that is like JP Bouvet. Um I love his site. Um hoping to get him on here eventually. I really like what he's doing.
SPEAKER_06:I've never met him. I love what he does. I love his playing and I love what he's doing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, he's stuff. He seems like a really nice guy and and uh just a neat approach. But what I was gonna say is that, you know, I've attended several of your master classes, as you know. And um by the way, I really appreciate you leaving in that tidbit in your in your recording um where you and I talked about just slightly, uh course that wasn't the point of it. But you talked about, you know, how um coping with mental illness through it. I thought that was I appreciate you leaving that slight little tidbit in there. Um but kind of what you guys touched on, and I'm not gonna give away anything in your master class because I know you're building that um community of that, and I hope that's going fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:It is going.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um and what I was gonna say is what even what you're sharing in just that hour of your master class, there's a ton of value in that. You're the way you explain things is ways I've not heard. Um and kind of to segue from that is you know, you're obviously a teacher and have taught, you know, you're kind of teaching even online through your TikToks, like he was saying, but you know, you have your your um what's your program called? Mastermind, right?
SPEAKER_06:It's mastermind, right? The study of the drums, inner circle mastermind is my is my slideshow program, right? That's my main thing.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And you know, uh I was sorry I couldn't be a part of that.
SPEAKER_06:Hey, man. There's always time. There's always another time.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Said the drummer. Yeah. There's always time, said the drummer. That's right. Um But um, you know, I you know, I hopped in on your master classes even after I knew what you were offering, just to hear you talk about it. And I was really happy um to be a part of that. Um But I love what you're doing, your approach to teaching through that method. I, you know, honestly, I don't know if you were one of the first to do it, but I have noticed since I since I've seen you promote those sorts of things, boy, they're popping up everywhere. I don't remember seeing them before you. Like legit. There's a oh there's a lot of sorry. There are a lot of squirrel. There are a lot of those popping up, but you know, they do also like the hour presentation of let me get you in here. I'm not, you know, zing off here. Um, but you've got something different in what you offer. And your yours was much more. I've probably seen, honestly, six or seven others. Wow. And none of them hit me like yours did, honestly. And I've shown him some too.
SPEAKER_03:He he's a professional student, like he really does his research and digs deep into stuff, is why he was an amazing student when when we were working together. But there's been so many things that he's you know brought into me, and I look at it and I'm like, wow, good lord, like you are like if anybody has a problem, you might, you might have a you might have a I need more knowledge, more knowledge. Yeah. So yeah, for him to say this, like uh about your course, because I haven't, I haven't had the chance to dig into any of it yet, but he comes to me with a lot, and the fact that he's talked about yours as much as he has, it it is probably I would say one of the better um how should we say compliments. Better well, better, like formed, like well thought out, really Yeah, laid out.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, it's just so organized and so laid out and so easy to follow and so inspirational too. Um I am not inspired by any of these others I've seen. There's no inspiration to it. I see that there's probably value in the teaching. I'm not inspired by it legit. And what I want to say is like, thank you for saying those things about that. I um I'm not somebody who can play a lot of the shit I see, like you two and many others, but I I do know things, you know, I've got a lot of knowledge about drumming. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Right, for sure. I can point out poly- I can point things out really easy. I can, you know, I know uh tempo and time signatures. There's no put up I can I play everything that I no, but I I know it. Trevor Burrus, Jr. He he's the guy that hips me to stuff now. Yeah. That's how deep he goes. That's part of the social media thing.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, but you're on to that. I think that's great, you know?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I look people I mean, I'm subscribed to probably literally 800 people that are just drummers. Um Weirdo. Yeah, I know. I don't I can't get enough of it. Um so kind of to segue from that, if it's okay, I know it's a very abrupt, poor segue. We're so good with segues. Welcome to the professionals. Yeah. But um you know, I definitely since this is a mental health-based why'd I do that? It's totally just a mental health-based bucket. Yeah, we don't talk about that. Um I know, you know, through um you and I kind of did a a Google meet at one point to talk about your program and things, and we ended up actually more talking about um you um you would say you have undiagnosed ADD crew. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, AD, I don't know, it's ADD, ADHD. It's it's bad. It's been bad since I was a little kid. I mean, it's it's uh something yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_04:No, the hey, we're interviewing you, so I don't I don't want to take the floor here. So if you um for one thing, I don't even know the difference between ADD and HD H B C D anymore. Um it's all complicated to me. I'm not downplaying either one. I just I don't know you know the technical stuff behind that. A D H C L G B T Q. L G B T uh A B C D, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Um I could tell you drums helped. Drums definitely helped. And that's what I wanted to get to is um as you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and as you know, I've mentioned um to me that being schizo-effective, you know, I there's something that drumming did for me that nothing else did. You know, I'm on medication, do the therapy, um, all that stuff. However, I wouldn't have I still wouldn't be able to be where I'm at without drumming, and I certainly wouldn't have got through the most difficult times of my life without it. And it was, and I know he doesn't like me saying this because he doesn't like me trying to give him credit for anything when it comes to my success with it. However, I saw the same look on his face when I was, hey Jay. No, but really, like it was it was his approach to teaching that honestly helped me know how to um apply it to what I was going through. And you know, he didn't even know I had what I had until 10 years in. Nope. I didn't share it with him at that point. It was kind of just a very abrupt, hey, you know what I am? Guess what's over there? But what's interesting is his natural way of teaching is what helped me. Now you you mentioned, you know, um having ADD, we'll just probably say that you do, right? Um how did that help you as a as a child? And then can you give us kind of the trajectory of how it even benefits you now and continues to be a benefit?
SPEAKER_06:Well, when I was a kid, it wasn't it wasn't a thing. You know, like no one no one diagnosed you with that. Uh I remember the first time it really it was, I mean, I was always in my own world. I was always like, I had a lot of big imagination. I always had things in my head. I was always like I I'm very kinesthetic. So if I watch watch a movie or hear a song, I memorized like everything when I was a kid. Oh wow. So I could watch a movie once and I could I could recall every line. I'm one of those guys. I like a every line of every movie that I've ever seen. I could someone says something, I'm like, boom. Like that's that's from Star Wars, from Indiana Jones. That's right. So I had all this crap in my head. And I would, I would when I would play, I I would literally just walk around the backyard and at sea like scenes from like Star Wars, and I'd be shooting lasers, and I'd be so, but this is what I'm doing. I'm like shooting the lasers and playing with the lightsaber and but I'm running around the backyard like that. And what's that?
SPEAKER_03:What's wrong with the what that finish on the so everybody was like, what is wrong with this kid?
SPEAKER_06:Is that he's autistic or something? Or like what's happening? And really, I was just playing. I was playing. I had my I was in my imagination, I was in that world, and I didn't care what I was, and my hands would go and everything. So it's just how I played. And my parents knew that. My parents knew that I wasn't stimming, that I wasn't like but my the focus was. I mean, I would put on the TV and I everything would just go black around me, and I would be like hyper focused on that. And my mom would be right next to me. What do you want for lunch? Jason, what do you want this? What do you want? Nothing. I mean, nothing. It was like she you should have to like literally touch me, like shake me and be like to snap me out of it. And I was an artist too. I like to draw, I love to paint. Uh and when I was in that, yeah, when I was in that, I was like, I'd be zoned in that. Um, I'd get lost in it. You know, and it was like that same kind of thing. Uh yeah, it was either drums or art for me. That was it was one or the other, and I went the drum route.
SPEAKER_04:But uh I wish you still do you still do art if I can just interject real quick?
SPEAKER_06:Um, not not a lot. A couple last last major thing I did was for my daughters when they were uh when they were born. My wife wanted a mural on the wall, so I did a whole, like a tree and a Winnie the Pooh spread across the wall. Oh, dang. That ain't that ain't no small Yeah, no, it was the entire room. It was the entire room. It came out of my three years later.
SPEAKER_00:So I was like, ah, but we have pictures of it.
SPEAKER_06:I took pictures of it. I'll have to send you some.
SPEAKER_03:You didn't take the drywall off the wall.
SPEAKER_06:Uh the new owners who like they had a kid, they had a baby, so they were like, oh, we love this room with the Winnie the Pooh. Hey, pass it along, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_06:Go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:I'm sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_06:Anyways, yeah, so so I when I I was a terrible test taker. I was terrible in school when I was little. And third grade in New York, they had something called the Iowa test. I don't know if Tony, if you've ever heard of that, I don't know if it's so it's basically a cognition test. It's like uh to get your IQ, you know. And um I the ADD, I'd go into analysis paralysis, like you see all these questions and you're timed. You know, you have to do it inside an analogy. So it's what and they say to you, Well, whatever you can do, do as much as you can.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_06:I probably like between I had five questions because I'd like get so wrapped up in it and my brain would just turn and the sequencing of it I couldn't figure out. And but when I was done, I did so bad on that test. Like the teachers contacted my parents and were like, he's uh for lack of a better term, a little slow, you know. Um and my mom's like, No, it's not like he's he's now again they tap they they were tapping that up to like a parent that's not that's in denial that their kid is like retarded, you know. And uh but my mom fought, she's fought, but they were gonna stick me on that remedial path, and she just fought. She went to the school and said, There's no way you're putting him in remedial classes. So I didn't, luckily, I was got stuck in normal classes.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks, mom.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, but I had to work my ass off. I mean, I had to work four times as hard as everyone else around me to just achieve the same level because I was so all over the place, and and my sequencing was off. If you give me anything with directions, step one, step two, step three, step. I was like, Yeah, I would get I would crash. I would like and it's proud.
SPEAKER_03:I would overstimulate. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And then I would just shut down, you know, I would just shut down. Down. It was very debilitating. And I my daughters, unfortunately, you know, I have one of one of my twin daughters has that. Like I could see it. She gets so frustrated. And I remember I remember that feeling of being completely frustrated. So that was like that was a huge thing and a huge hurdle. But I always did well because I just worked really hard. I just figured I gotta work starts. That's what I gotta do. Um, and I had a really good memory. So, like stuff like history, like if I would study, I would be laser focused and I would I would get it and I would memorize it and I'd ace the test. Math. My dad was a math teacher, so I like math. I was a little I loved math. I was very fascinated with math. That's why the polyrhythms and rhythm in general was like, yeah. You know, I loved math. And um when I I I I tried sports and yeah, sports, sports wasn't was a mess for me. I used to sit in the grass and play, pick bugs out of the uh grass in the soccer field. I didn't I didn't care. They got this. It's all right. That was it. That was it. And then one day, uh yeah. That's exactly like I did not zero zero competitive spirit. Like I had none. Like I didn't care about winning. I didn't care about to me, it was all nonsense. Like you win, what do you get? What do you get when you win? Well, you get to say you won.
SPEAKER_04:Like a participation trophy, Jay.
SPEAKER_06:Very, very funny. So when I started playing drums, my parents asked me if I wanted drum lessons, and I was like, yeah, sure, okay. You know, and uh we started first lesson with my teacher, he started playing something for me. And you know, this is what you'll sound like in a few years if you and I was just like hooked. Second I heard him play, I was like, oh my god, I need to do that. Like, oh my god. Like I want to see.
SPEAKER_04:I remember that moment. Yeah, same here with this guy. Yep, absolutely.
SPEAKER_06:I wouldn't say I was particularly talented. I don't think I was a good student because it was in the beginning, it was very hard. It was very all that sequencing was like, oh my god, this is all instruction. And I loved it. I loved figuring it out. It was like a puzzle to me. I was I was never the per the kid that didn't practice. In fact, my parents like my my sister played piano, and my parents used to make me stop practicing. So my sister was cracking. That's what they'd say, Jay, Jay, Jay, stop practicing because you know, there's two drums are so loud, your sister needs to concentrate. You can't concentrate on the piano if you're banging on the drums upstairs. And, you know, that was my life all through high school. But I I started getting it and it helped. It helped, it really did. It's once I started getting that sequencing, it helped me in school, it helped me socially, it helped me.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, like in every situation, I started having more confidence in myself because I now start sounding good and I'm getting attention now. Right. But also I'm like, I'm almost I was this little nerdy kid, like super small and super nerdy. Um, I had like the mullet hair in the 80s, you know, the big coke glasses and oh yeah, like totally. My buddy used to call it the Vader stage because that looked like a Darth Vader helmet.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. Business in the front, party in the back.
SPEAKER_06:That was it. That was it. I wanted the hair. I wanted like the rock star long metal hair.
SPEAKER_03:My mom wouldn't let me either.
SPEAKER_06:It just kept on, oh, my mom was all about it. My mom was like, grow it out. Yeah, my mom was all about it. My mom's a rocker. She she loves Deaf Leopard, she loves I mean, she's the Beatles, and that's what she grew up with, but she was a rocker. She loves Aerosmith, she loves Def Leopard, she loves, you know, she loves rock. She's a rocker. Nice. So yeah, but my hair kept on just going like this. It kept on going out. Then eventually, one day, it fell down. It got upset. But I looked like a Muppet. I had this giant head of hair and this tiny little body, you know, that looked like Anna.
SPEAKER_04:Bosie finish, though.
SPEAKER_03:Pretty good.
SPEAKER_05:Wacka, waka, wacka, waka, waka.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, and then like I said, from from then on, it just that became like my identity. And um, I think without drums, I don't know what the hell. You know, where and I still have still a problem. It's still not not great. I told my wife when I met our first eight, I was like, listen, I'm gonna tell you something about me that you gotta I'm telling you right off the bat, you know, this is gonna happen where I'm gonna be sitting there, you're gonna be talking to me, and I'm not gonna hear a word you're saying. I was like, it's not because I'm ignoring you, it's not because I I just it just I don't it I delete you, I delete everything. It's not something I can control. And so when it happens, she still gets frustrated. She's still like, are you listening for them thing?
SPEAKER_03:And I'm like, no, you know, it's that, but it's that misnomer of most people think ADD, ADHD is an attention deficit, but really what it is is a hyper focus, and it's you get lost in things, and people assume you don't have any attention of what's going on around you. And that part's true, but they don't realize that it comes from a hyper focus. Yeah. I mean, I've met so many people that you want to tell him like what you do so he knows why you know this a little bit. Oh, did do you I work in mental health? I was a music therapist and kind of through that have gotten it.
SPEAKER_06:I want to say Nick's Nick told me that.
SPEAKER_03:I think I'm sure I just want to make sure you knew because he's got a lot of that sort of side. So yeah, and I absolutely loved that that someone I lived a very similar childhood. I maybe wasn't out in the backyard. I had a big, vivid imagination. I may not have been out there doing the crazy hand motions necessarily, but I remember getting into drumming and having that moment where my my first teacher played, and I was like, wow, I want to do that. And then going home and the frustration that mounted, because if do you know the book Realistic Rock?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I've written sure.
SPEAKER_03:Carmen of Peace, right? Okay, so exercise six was the first one where you get to the 16th notes. One, two, three, four, and uh one, two. Right. I still remember that Friday night because I was like, I'm coming home from school and I'm gonna get this down. And I could not, for the life of me, figure out, and I won. And it was the it was through that struggle that it really laid the groundwork to persevere through any other struggles in my life. And the the ability to stay on and practice and persevere, have that whole, I've got one more pick me up, then you got knock me down. Drumming was really good for that for me. Um, and I think to some extent, even for you, there was there were a lot of hurdles that you faced. Oh, yeah, and you'd come in one week and I'd be like, uh didn't quite make it. And the next week, boy, this kid would come back and he would have it in spades. Because that Yeah, I'd grab weeks for sure. Yeah, like it just the that ability to learn how to learn takes learning how to push through the failures to find the success. Because too many people and I I think I hope you're getting into that.
SPEAKER_04:What? Well, the whole kind of epidemic of avoiding struggle and avoiding pushing yourself instead of like, ah, you know what? That's too difficult. I'm gonna do something else, or that's too difficult.
SPEAKER_06:I need to I need to that's a thing. Yeah, that's a bad thing.
SPEAKER_03:Very much a thing. Sadly, even therapy has gone that route. Therapy's gone that route too. Oh, is that too much stress? Yeah, just need to back off and just sit.
SPEAKER_04:There there is protect your peace. Right. No, learn how to persevere, push through. Yeah, you have to. And I of course there are certain things that are you gotta step back for sure, but not everything. And certainly not like things you're passionate about or trying to learn, like drumming. There's a ton of hurdles. You hit one every time you sit behind the kit. Yeah. Um so but you get so much joy. And my gosh, the the feeling you get when you finally get something down, even halfway there, where you're like, okay, I got the concept, now I can polish it. Wow, that's an amazing feeling.
SPEAKER_06:It's everybody else is like you get a high from that, right? You do.
SPEAKER_04:You do.
SPEAKER_06:It is a lot of those milestones, and you're like, oh my God, where's the next one? Where's the next, where's the next milestone?
SPEAKER_04:Yep. And one thing I love that you share, and even uh uh, you know, I I Virgil Donati's my favorite drummer, right? You've probably heard me say it, everybody does. One thing I love about him is even at his level, um, he still says, you know, I'm always, I've never, he said, I'm not even scratched the surface. I'm like, if anybody scratch the surface, it's you guy. Right. But um, and his level of dedication is is unprecedented and probably will, you know. But my thing with him is, you know, he he always talks about how, you know, I have to stay ahead of the curve. Um if somebody's getting close to my level, it's like, all right, I and he always kind of has maintained that.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But it's I mean, for him, I got to imagine there's a deeper connection, kind of like when whatever way works for him, obviously probably to a deeper level for him, but there is something to, and of course, for us it's drumming. But as we say all the time, it is about something creative and something personal that you can lose yourself in. Finding a passion. And you know, like we've we've kind of labeled it as well, it is just flow state. Um so like one thing we talk about too is like how long it takes to hit flow state or what it feels like for us um or what it does for us. I'd love to know because you know, having ADD, I I I don't have that. I don't pretend to know what that's like. But I imagine the escape is probably pretty difficult. Is that right? Although I know you kind of mentioned that you could fixate. Now, is that a comfortable feeling for you? Like if you you're watching something.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So that's comfortable. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I mean, what if if I'm watching a show, so like in college, for example, um, I had roommates, you know, I had my bunch of roommates and we're all very good friends and whatnot. And uh, you know, I would say to my my roommate Vin or my my sweetmate Mike, and I would I I sat down and I had that same conversation I had my wife. I'd say, listen, I have this problem. I don't know. Again, you know what it back then it wasn't really as much a thing. It became like much much more popularized later, but nobody's one under diagnosed. No one ever sent me to the doctor to get it checked out. But I mean, everything I've ever read ever since then, it's like I am like, oh my God, it's like so spot on. And everyone, it's one of those things everyone thinks I have ADHD. Everyone you talk to, oh, I have my ADHD, my ADHD. And I'm like, you don't got it. That's not true.
SPEAKER_04:I was I was hoping that you, someone who legitimately suffers from it, even though undiagnosed. Right. Um, I love that you said that because that is one of the things that I think social media has really hurt is all these people trying to self-diagnose things, they you know, it's like OCD is the other big one. It's like, oh, I gotta have things organized, so I'm OCD. It's like, no, no, you don't. I am an organizational guy. Does it drive me nuts when you know the wife doesn't maintain what I just cleaned? Sure.
SPEAKER_03:But it's not like it's crippling. Remember how mad you got when I said I would come over and not move your DVDs out of move the DVD into another case. Yeah, that's not funny. It well, but but it I'm saying it illustrates. Like there are there are people who truly suffer from things, and then there are people who just need to label for sympathy or something. I don't know. Like narcissist is the other word. Yeah, it's all disease, yep. Unfortunately, the internet was bad for that. Uh yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But labeling a lot of people is that very different thing.
SPEAKER_03:But but I do think and and okay, so this whole channel started because we started having conversations about his diagnosis and drumming and flow state. And so that sort of was the genesis of this whole thing. Um in hearing you talk about how you know, knowing what I know about AD ADD, hearing the hyperfixation, I'm sure you could get completely lost in drumming. I mean, there are times I'm in it, right? And somebody can walk in and they'll be standing two feet from me, going, Tony, Tony, and it'll finally catch me and like scare the living hell out of me. But it's that that ability to get that deep in something that really like it is the relief for him. It it did help you figure out how to focus in your life. In my life, it taught me, you know, perseverance and pushing through. And life isn't always comfortable, and you're always gonna have a problem. It's never gonna be perfect. It doesn't need to be. Right. And so I'm just thinking, like, what it's great that you you're awesome as a teacher for drums, right? But if if if you can tell us, has it helped you in other areas? Are there things that you feel like drumming has like you're like, wow, I totally attribute this to drumming.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. I mean, I would say I was a shy kid, like I said, I was a little nerdy, so I didn't have a lot of friends, you know. Um but drumming it helped me find my confidence and being in teaching also and all that stuff. Helped me, helped you find I started learning that like I was very uh I had a lot of self-hatred when I was a kid, as a lot a lot of kids do when you beat yourself up. I'm a nerd, I'm a teenage.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was 32 years old.
SPEAKER_06:Right. I mean, I never had a girlfriend until like I, you know, I was in college. I never had a serious girlfriend, you know. Um 26 years old. Yeah, but that was it. But but you know, because I I understood the process of getting better at something, I started understanding the process of of big building towards mastery. I started learning the process of practice and repetition and doing something over it again. Uh the process of like trying something even when you're scared because it's new.
SPEAKER_03:That is that is a big one.
SPEAKER_06:Reading, reading is not now. I'm not talking about reading music, I'm talking about reading a book. I'll read a book, I'll start reading it. And four pages in my mind was somewhere else, and I was fixated on that other thing, and I read, but I I lost it. I like I so when I'm reading words, but if I put an audiobook, I retain everything.
SPEAKER_04:I hear you.
SPEAKER_06:So it's like that's back to that kinesthetic thing. And that is debilitating. That's like a debilitating.
SPEAKER_04:So I mean, not exactly apples to apples, but I mean, I can't uh read um read books or it's even hard for me to read music and focus because of the external audio and audible and whatever the fuck. Can't even talk right now. The stimuli. The stimuli from my symptoms. Um so not exactly the same reasons, but kind of same um end result from it. What I do want to ask, um, and this is a very personal one for me, is so you said um, you know, you feel like you've passed on the ADD to your daughter.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Do you have any guilt about that?
SPEAKER_06:Sometimes. Sometimes I do. Uh you know, um, but I I don't look at it as necessarily, is it a handicap? It's a handicap. But I think getting over it, learning how to get over that taught me how to persevere, taught me how to work harder than everybody else. Right.
SPEAKER_05:I was like where you are.
SPEAKER_06:That that's that's what it taught me. So it's the same thing with drums, and I want her to find that for her thing, whatever her thing is. I want her to be able to find that same place. So my you know, my wife is all about let's get her diagnosed and let's get her on medication. I never had medication. I don't know if that'd be helpful. I don't know if it's something that would help me. I'd we talk about it all the time. My wife always says to me, I think you'd be you'd be so much more effective with business and with every with this and she's probably right, because there's times where I still get with the business, like things get overwhelmed, where I'm like, I have 50 things on my screen, I have a to-do list, and I'm like, analysis paralysis kicks in, and I'm like and I and 15 minutes goes by and I was just staring at the screen, like, uh you know, you you know what though, Jay, if I may, I wonder if your handicap is also your superpower.
SPEAKER_04:Maybe I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:You know, because I mean I've got a pretty serious handicap myself. Is it your superpower? It is my superpower. Even the schizo-defective, right? Um, but like I think in some ways, you know, I've had a lot of trauma in my life, and you know, every day is kind of a nightmare in its own way because of what I go through. Yeah. But it does, I'm one of the most resilient people I know. I've dealt with situations that I should not have had to. Uh what? I was just gonna see. Um, you know, I dealt with things, a lot of things I shouldn't have had to at certain ages, and I think a lot of it comes from dealing with this shit every single day, my whole life. Yeah. Um but what I was gonna say too is that, you know, you being ADD yourself, let's say you never decide to do uh meds for your daughter, yourself, or anything. Who is better to lead your daughter through what she's going through than yourself? Um having a parent that has literally been through it and has gone through the motions, it's kind of those things where you look to a wiser, older mentor and it's like, well, I I've been through that road, let me try to lead you where I got to where I am, or stray you away from the things that you know were not so great. Um, I asked you about, you know, if you feel guilt about your daughter, and I'm glad it seems like you're pretty at peace with that whole thing. Um my son's only 11 months old, um, so you know, very young. Um however, um uh schizotypal um mental illnesses are a gene. Yeah. So the gene is in my family. I'm the only one who's had it, so um we don't really know the trauma that caused it because they've kind of uncovered through there's a documentary called Six Schizophrenia. Six Schizophrenic Brothers on HBO. It's a great shot. Don't know if you're interested in that, but highly recommend it if you want any details about that. But they get into through that research, they found out that it is a gene in families, and trauma is what caused the mutation in the brain for it to manifest as the mental illness. So um, you know, looking back, we really can't trace anything other than I had a stillborn twin. Um and there is possibly some research that you know, twins have a very you have twins, right? So there's a very chance that has there's I don't know what else it would be, and we don't know either. But what I was gonna say is, you know, I do have an absolute phobia, and it's a legitimate phobia of of my son Max possibly ending up with it. And the amount of protection and the amount of the fear I have. I mean, he falls on the floor and I'm like, oh shit, he hit his head. Like, oh God, like is that gonna be it? Is that the one? Like I've really worked on, I've had to get on special medication, honestly, to help with the anxiety of that. Because I was I was suffocating people with that fear. Honest to God, I was. Oh. I was, and it was uncomfortable for people around me because I would get like, honestly, I'd get very irritated if he fell. I'm like, why why why'd you let him do that? Why is this? Why? And it's like I had to kind of calm down with the help of therapy, and I have to admit I needed it. And it was like, Nick, babies fall all the time. I mean, I've heard stories literally. I had a guitar teacher where I worked that was carrying his what six month old daughter down the stairs. He's a big guy, 6'3, probably damn near 300 pounds. Fell down a flight of stairs with his daughter. Nothing. You know what I mean? They're very built for that. And do I still have that phobia? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Trevor Burrus Well, and I remember at that time, that's when we took that evening and set up your drums.
SPEAKER_04:That's right. It wasn't. You're right. And it helped a lot. There was a good period after my son was born that there was a lot of shit that went south for me. And at the same time, right when he was born. And it's always great timing, right? Perfect. And uh, you know, it took uh it took many months before I got back into drumming. And I'll tell you what, that's when things started looking up again. Um but kind of to mention that, you know, I have an absolute fear of him ending up with that by whatever means it is. However, everybody's like kind of I just said to you, you know, who better to lead him through it than me? So there is kind of a a piece or at least a uh a comfort in that, well, he's got a good teacher, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Right. And that's what you can do. I mean, you can't see uh yes I guilt. Um there's nothing you can do about that. She is her own person, she's who she's gonna be, and it's gonna be her life struggle to figure that out. Uh and yes, I'm happy to be there to help her as much as I can, you know, um, and and uh explain to her that this is this is something that you're gonna go through and this is what it's gonna be like, and kind of be that person for her, and which we've done. And like when she comes home and has homework, she gets very well, I can see it. It's amazing to watch it. And it's like watching it from watching myself from the outside.
SPEAKER_04:Flashback, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Flashback, right? But I didn't have anyone that was like really helping me with that because it was undiagnosed, it was like not a thing, and it was just like don't be stupid, you know. That was like that was what I got from my teachers.
SPEAKER_03:Like, you know, don't be stupid. So helpful.
SPEAKER_06:Right, they're so helpful, right? And it was kind of like that was the train, that was the only kind of instruction you got, you know, or your or your kids' remedial remedial were just gonna blow it off, you know. And that's and luckily, like I said, I thought, yeah, my parents fought because yeah, and I did have to work hard. Would it have been better if I was in the remedial classes? I mean, it would be easier, but like you said, Tony, I learned how to work really hard. I learned I had to push. If I want to get an A on that test, I'm gonna have to do it twice as hard. I'm gonna study twice as much. Some one kid spends an hour, I'm gonna spend three, and it's gonna get the same result. And that's but that's what drumming was like for me. Drumming was like that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I can tell you several of your TikToks you show me in you know 60 seconds or whatever, and then I go spend three hours on thank you so much. But I learned perseverance from from Jay Fettershell. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, um, and I know you mentioned that, I mean, in the college years, you were practicing 10, 12 hours a day, right? I know you were too.
SPEAKER_06:There was times, yeah. There was time, you know, and because that would that that was the thing, right? Weckle talked about that in the world. Yeah, we all read the Weckle. We all heard that story. Uh, and now, yes, I tried it, um, but I'm sure Tony could attest to this. But when you start doing 13-hour days, days in a row, uh, the burnout is insane. Yeah, the burnout is insane. And you're really you're spinning your wheels after an hour like three or four, you're spinning your wheels, you know.
SPEAKER_03:You just have to figure that out.
SPEAKER_06:Right. And you realize that you could practice smarter when you get better at practicing. I mean, that's what my whole program is. It's all about practicing, knowing your outcome, knowing why you're practicing something. That's the biggest key is understanding what's behind the practice instead of just saying, I gotta do stick control because everyone says I should do that. I gotta practice these rudiments because everyone says I should do that. That's not motivating. Yes. If you if you have you're disciplined and like, yes, I'm gonna do my rudiments and I'm gonna try to get them fast. But there's no way you don't know why you're doing it.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_06:Now you're fighting against you. You're working against the flow. You're working against the rudiments. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Learning the why is such a big part of practice.
SPEAKER_04:It's everything.
SPEAKER_06:It's everything.
SPEAKER_04:I gotta tell you, that was the most valuable thing that I took from your master classes was the outcome. Um what's interesting, if you don't mind me telling this thing, and you and I talked about it, is I don't know if you remember when I worked on, I was working on Virgil Donati's Alien Hip Hop.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, don't tell him that.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I'm sorry. Um But I was working on it like tirelessly, and I was getting it down pretty good. And there was a point where I remember you asked me, you know, what are you gonna use this? Or you are saying, I'm such a dick. No, you're not. You're saying, well, what are you gonna use that for? Like, and let's be real, what are you using the ducka duck-duck-duck to get you know that thing for? Nothing. You know, what are you really gonna use that for? And um but I also didn't necessarily have an outcome. I just kind of enjoyed playing it.
SPEAKER_05:That could be your outcome.
SPEAKER_04:And that's that's that's exactly what it was at the time. And like I like I told you earlier, like I've kind of realized that I don't know that I want to work on fives against sevens against all that because I think my my question to you is like, well, where are you gonna use that?
SPEAKER_03:Was really more based on the frustration. And you were playing it better than I was playing it. At the time I was, yeah. And and I'm like, okay, but you're st I'm still seeing you're frustrated in it. Oh, yeah, I was mad. I got so mad. And and I was like, okay, but you're you're spending hour hour after hour after hour. Instead of other things that instead of all these other things that you're also frustrated that you're not getting to. And I'm like, okay, so why are we spending so much time on that when you really want to do X? Right, right. And so again, it goes back to what the outcome, right? So the why behind what you're practicing. Like, why would I practice exercise number six for one entire Friday night? Right. Because that was the mountain I had to get over to get to all of the rest of them. Right. And so, you know, da ka da da ka da da da-ga. And like what what's on the other side of that mountain? And I think that's that's you blow up the conversation. What's on the other side of that mountain? Right. You know, why? So for me, watching his first couple of polyrhythm uh shorts that he would do. And then he put it in a musical context where I'm like, okay, I know what I'm practicing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's yeah, that's the thing. And um I don't know if, you know, there was one of the master classes you asked for feedback on. Yeah. And I actually labeled that I left some. I don't I actually said it was me. I don't know if you saw it. I know you probably get a plethora of those. But one thing I mentioned, and I kind of want to ask you about this, is my favorite thing to watch you play is the musical side of things. So when you when you apply the polyrhythms musically, or when you're doing, you know, uh, what's the uh Dave Well tune, the chicory tune you did? Got a match. Got a match. Oh my, I've watched that on repeat.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and you is that what you were playing in the park that one day, too, with the trio?
SPEAKER_06:Yes, because we were at a chicoria tribute band and we used to do it.
SPEAKER_04:Nice. Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. Like, that's what I just oh my god, I'll watch that on repeat. Um I I would I can't wait till he gets some of that his stuff out there because that's the stuff I will watch on repeat, is the musical application. Now I know technically, and I think you've said you built your following on the polyrhythm kind of things. Am I right on that? Is that okay to say?
SPEAKER_06:Accidentally, like I told you, because that one exercise was like it resonated. I was trying to give this stuff that I thought was val that I thought was valuable, like the practice thing, you know, and nobody was paying attention. And when I did that one polyrhythm thing, it blew up. And and that's the thing with social media. It's kind of like when something works, you got the secret is I was into polyrhythms in high school. So I had a teacher who was a great teacher out of Berkeley, you know, still a good friend of mine today, but he was young at the time. He was like in his mid-20s, you know. I was like, and I was like 15 or 16 taking lessons with him, and he studied with Gary Chafee. So all that stuff and the stickings book, and he was passing that on to me. And again, I I felt from the ego of it like, oh, I'm doing this next level crazy polyrhythm shit. And like, you know, people are gonna talk about, you know, well, if I could do this crazy polyrhythm, people are gonna go, wow, at the music store. And they did. And I got a lot of attention from that back in when I was a kid. Right. Of course, when I got to college, and it was like, I could do an 7-Eleven polyrhythm.
SPEAKER_04:Look, they were like, so you know what, Jay, can you share? Can you share real quick this if you want to, the story you tell um about your college experience? Oh my god, yeah. If it's okay to share that, because I know you share that in your in your master class. Yep. I'd love for that to be on here because I love that story, and I think you can kind of relate to parts of it too.
SPEAKER_06:Right, right. So I mean again, that that's that's what I was. The challenge with myself when I was young is yeah, I would practice all that polyrhythm stuff, but I didn't have a good grasp of really where the time was when I was doing that kind of thing. I knew the relationships. I could figure out the relationships, and yes, I I technically knew what what 16th notes were, if I saw the written music, but there was a disconnect between what I was reading on a page and what I played, you know. And when I played, I played mostly by feel. I love listening to Weckle and Kalyuda and and and Dennis Chambers and Steve Smith. I was listening to all these guys all the time. And I would emulate them. I would try, I'd hear Weckle do something, and I would get on the kit and do something and make it sound like that somehow.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_06:And I'd come up with some kind of a pattern that worked, and I'd practice it and practice it right until I could do it. And of course, my teachers would give me patterns, but they were all patterns. And the biggest challenge was I didn't have a sense of where the time was, how that pattern related to time. So it was all on feel. It was like I'm just gonna feel around. And if I do this pattern really fast and hit it, you know, it sometimes it would come out on one, sometimes it would come out a little early, a little late.
SPEAKER_03:It's displacement, guys.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, it was just like you're playing, and then you just do this thing, and bang, is that one was close? You know, it was kind of like it was like that, very immature. But you know, you felt great because you could play these fast little licks. And when someone showed me the molar thing, when I started learning that you could just throw your hands, and I found that I had no physicality, but I could do the molar thing great. And also I'm playing fast, but it only worked at one speed. It was only good and fast. I couldn't do it slower. So what happened was I'm playing here. Ah, bang! Ah, you know, and it'd be like, right?
SPEAKER_03:I just made the connection. You in the backyard.
SPEAKER_06:See, someone just put sticks in my hands, and I was like, perfect, there it is.
SPEAKER_03:There it is.
SPEAKER_06:So so that was my secret. My secret was I knew all these patterns, and I had no idea what it was in the time a lot of the times. I would play and my head would just shut off. I was a good parrot. I could play on top of Neil Purt, I could play on top of, you know, uh Scott Rockinfield or whatever drummers, you know, I was listening by Portnoy, I'd figure all that stuff out and I could parrot it. As long as I was playing on top of the tune, I could just parrot it and it would, and I just have to kind of stay right within that box of what they were doing. Yeah, but so when I got to college, uh for the audition to college, they said to me, um it's a 75-person cap on our jazz department. It was a very new department at purchase. Purchase was my first choice because it was a state school, so it meant it was a lot cheaper.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_06:Right. Or even going to Manhattan or one of those, it was like a third of the price of what those colleges were. But I could still still close enough to Manhattan that I could study with John Riley. I could study with Kim Clainfield. Oh wow. The college was very good about reaching out to them and saying, you know, can we work out where where this guy could go to you and study? Uh and then they also gave you your own practice room, which was huge.
SPEAKER_04:That's a big deal. Yep.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. So it was like, here's a key, here's your room. You could practice as much as you want. Where if you went to the new school, when I addition at the new school, they're like, well, you got to fill out a chart, you got to block out your time, and none of the rooms have a drum set. So you got to bring a drum set.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, that's oh, that is bad.
SPEAKER_06:Practice, break it down, and take it with you. And I was like, how I was like, I know myself. I'm just never gonna go practice. I'm never gonna practice. You know, if I have to do that, like I'm never gonna do it. So I mean, it purchased just gave me that. I was like, so I gotta get into this school. It was like my number one school. So when they told me that, we, you know, there's three people, we're we're allowing three freshmen this year, and we don't need drummers. They're like, we need plenty of drummers, we don't need drummers. So we're just telling you right off the bat, you know, you could come audition, but we don't need drummers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Already I'm like, ah crap. So I prepared for the audition best I could. I got everything together I could get together. And during the audition, everything was going very, you know, vanilla. I was keeping everything very conservative because I I knew that if I stepped out and did my licks, if I go off and I come in the wrong spot, they're gonna know. And now I'm gonna the whole audition's gonna be shot. So I'm going super conservative through the whole audition, and they're all the teachers are just kind of like going through the motions, like, all right, like when's this over? The last thing they asked me to do was a trading thing.
SPEAKER_00:This is overwhelming.
SPEAKER_06:This you know, big scary jazz bass player who had toured with like these, you know, these jazz greats, you know, see the road on his face, you know, like he was like this big, angry, scary bass player. And like, yeah, Vishnu's gonna play with you and you're gonna just trade on a blues and trade force, do like three rounds. So we start playing and you know, we're doing that, and then my solo came up first round. Uh da do da da boo da dao.
SPEAKER_00:Bang bang.
SPEAKER_06:And I look over at the judges and they're like, you know, rolling eyes.
SPEAKER_04:I've seen this a million times.
SPEAKER_06:Second one was the same thing. I did like very super conservative. And then like the third one, I was like, this is it. Like, this is my last shot. Like, I gotta do something. I'm like, I know all this weckle stuff. So I'm like thinking in my head, weckle, Kalyuda, what would Vinny do? What would Vinnie do? What would Vinny do in this situation?
SPEAKER_04:Get a bracelet of that, right? What would Vinny do?
SPEAKER_06:What would Vinny do? Right. And Vinny do what he was playing. So my solo comes up and I was just like that was it. I was just like, lick, lick, lick, lick, lick, lick, and they hit down the molar thing. I'm flying around, I'm doing this thing. I have no clue where I am. I mean, the time is just out the flipping window. I have I'm flying around and I'm flying around and I'm flying around and I'm closing my eyes, and all of a sudden I just came around and it was like boom, boom, bad, bad, right on one. And these guys like fell off the floor. They fell off the chairs. They jumped up there like so. They thought I was being conservative and building them up and doing like a like a pool shark thing where it's like, I'm I'm gonna let you win, let you win.
SPEAKER_03:Sucker you in.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I'm gonna sucker you in and turn around. And they're like, that was absolutely genius. That shows such maturity. And my ego is like on exploding like on fire, you know? And they they said they thought it was a prodigy, and they're like, We're accepting you into the program because, like, oh my god, you're like one of the best drummers we've ever heard. And I was like, Oh, great. Challenge was when I got to school and I got the rep class, day one, and I went in there and they were expecting that dude. And it was like, okay, where's where's the genius? Where's all the genius stuff that you know? And then I would do that, and but I would come out here, not on one. And they were like, wait, that wasn't really. Oh my god. The rep teacher used to take um a metronome and put the microphone on the metronome and play it through the PA. And he used to be and uh which was like hard, because you could still not you still didn't compete with the drums, even through the PA. But like you'd fall off like instantly, and you'd be like, get off the drums next. You know, if you can't even play to the click, figure out a play to the click. You know, you're not swinging, you're not in time, you're not they they it was they were so pissed that I wasn't that guy, and now I was like the another schlocky player, and they realized right away and they felt like they got duped, which they kind of did. Yeah, I kind of tricked them. So so they worked like for the next year to try to get me, they couldn't, they couldn't kick me out of the program because I was making my grades. My grades were great. I was like a straight A student. So the only way to get me to quit and open up that spot and maybe salvage the next year was for me to leave. So they just like I mean, I think Doug Monroe said to me, like um that my senior year, he's like, Yeah, we were very intentionally hard on you, Jay. I'm glad. I'm glad it worked out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm glad it. Well, that's I was just gonna get to. I mean, I know the movie Whiplash made it look that's what I was in a little, I know, I remember the reference, but I had somebody very much like that. That's what you want. I didn't get a symbol thrown at me, but there have been mallets flinging flying through the air.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, Kim Plainfield was mine. That was him.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah. Kim Plain.
SPEAKER_05:I would imagine scary dude.
SPEAKER_03:But that's the thing is like you need that kind of I mean, it's wonderful to get the accolades and that moment that you had, and you're like, I'm gonna go for it, and here it is, and one just happened to be on one this one time, and it worked out, and you get all those accolades, and that's great. But it's that hard work that once you get in, because I mean, I I actually got a full ride to a place called Moorhead, Moorhead State, and he saw something in me, but the only time he ever told me that was after the audition. Because the next four years of four and a half years of my life, because I didn't uh I didn't produce when I should have in in one instance, but the the just beat down that I took really truly shaped me into the player that I became. Um and Pat Petrillo, which I'm sure you know that name, he he went to Moorhead and he actually came back. And he was he was starting to do some really cool things, and he sort of came about that time when uh Spur of the Moment, the little square record in Modern Drummer. Do you remember the weckle? Yeah. And that was kind of that turning point. That was like freshman year, sophomore year, somewhere there for me. And so all of this stuff just kind of came together. Sounds like same for you, is is you got you got the lucky break to get in, right? But then it became like music concentration camp, essentially. Because I can remember those long hours, and they gave us a room. Well, they didn't give you the room. You did have to earn it by earning a spot. Wow. And I and I lucked out, I got jazz two. I didn't make jazz one my first year. You know, everybody was telling me, Oh, you're gonna be great, you're gonna get in. And and I got the the audition. He said, Well, yeah, I think you've got some talent. And I'm like, Yeah, I got jazz one. I'm gonna show these people. It was skin of my teeth that I made jazz two, you know, and there's like a couple of drummers in each one. So it that experience, I think, I got I wish, I wish more people could have that experience and have the ability to, the, the fortitude, if you know what I mean, to stick it out through that. Because while that guy in the first couple of months, I hated that man. Hated him. And to this day, we're still friends. You know, like he I can remember leaving the note the last day I left and leaving that note just saying, I don't know how to put it in words, so thank you. And it it really is like. So weird to talk about somebody just beating on you and then you're grateful for it. But I feel like the discipline.
SPEAKER_06:I I absolutely 100% feel that.
SPEAKER_03:I know exactly what the but the discipline of drumming, like I really hope this tra the it that it starts to transcend that and people start to get back to that. Because you know, the the snowflake thing, I think it's gone as far as it needs to go. Right here, right now, you heard it from Jay, it's gonna stop. But no. Um, I it's weird there's so many parallels with, you know, I hear you talking, and I mean, even I because I was an artist, I can remember like being in an art competition and and winning the cart competition, and then thinking, wow, I've you're you're a good artist now. Like that's good design. I'm gonna I'm gonna be an artist when I grow up. And then somebody told me, well, you can't you don't make money until you die. And then I'm like, oh, this is well, maybe not art then. Let's let's find something else.
SPEAKER_05:So drum is much better.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Drumming really worked out, yeah. Oh, you don't want to be a rock star? You want to be a jazz drummer? So much better. Yeah, good, yeah, good.
SPEAKER_04:Remember asking your guys as a you guys as college turned you into world-class players. I don't have that. Well, then I'm just gonna have to start being hard on you again. Yeah, you were, man, talk about crack the whip. He had one of those like uh whips with hooks on it that took meat out of the back.
SPEAKER_03:Um, but like, so I I offer Hellraiser lessons for a slightly, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Well, I'm a huge heart guy, so yeah, big Hellraiser fan.
SPEAKER_04:But um You know, you you never you never had to do that for me. I was pretty motivated. You were very dedicated. You rarely showed up. I I'd had my moments, but that was normally due to the mental health. It wasn't anything outside of that. But I mean, there were many weeks I would show up and have worked ahead.
SPEAKER_03:But I even got to the point where when I when I saw you have a bad week, I knew you were gonna boomerang and slowly. Yeah, there was. You weren't that the next week was gonna be like the best. Yeah, but you never had to come down on me at all.
SPEAKER_04:But what I will say is, you know, when I got to college um the third time. Ha! No, second time. I went on three times. Um but the second time I went, um, I applied to to um I. I did get in. I did get in, and it's it was the first, the best music school in the country at that point for uh jazz. Um I did get in. I think it was, I don't know, first or second, it's way up there. Um regarded for basically what what what kind of deterred me from that is um I uh ended up deciding to go for music tech and recording at IUPY, which was you know right next to where I lived. And uh IU Bloomington was like an hour and a half away, and I'd have to live on campus and you know all that, and it was too expensive and you know, all sorts of logistics. But I ended up kind of going the music tech and recording route because I thought, well, this is something I can use. Like I can play music and use that. However, for one thing, for one thing, I was a dumbass because with my audio uh audible hallucinations, there ain't no prayer I'm gonna be able to mix Jack shit. I still can't mix anything. I have to run things by him. So it's like, what an idiot to even do that. I was just trying. But here's the story I have. So when I um when I uh went to IUPY, um, you know, when you're there, you have to take you know music classes, but it's like piano and all this stuff. You have to learn piano and uh composition classes and all that. I told you this story, right? So um the uh the instructor there, the percussion instructor, my first lesson I go in and he says, All right, we're gonna be learning Marimba, we're gonna learn xylophone, we're gonna piano and all this shit. Me being the freaking pretentious, stupid idiot that I was, I literally told him, I said, look, I got no interest in any of that. I don't care about any of it. All I want to focus on is set. If you even give me exercises on that, I will not do them. I said, You just fail me now. And he said, Oh, really? He said, All right, get your ass behind. I mean, he said that the first day. He's like, get your ass behind the kit then. And I played and I had had a good foundation from you. I I didn't have a lot of the faking things. I was pretty solid. And he said, Okay. He said, All right, you've proved to me that we can do this, but you're gonna regret it. No, he said you're he said you're gonna regret it, and he helped me. He helped me learn some things on the kit, but he said, You're gonna regret it because you're not gonna have the foundation you need to do what you're wanting to do. Right. And I still regret it, even though I don't have the music tech and recording. Yeah. I don't have the piano, I can't compose. I write songs, as you know. I'm actually working on a few right now. I have to rely on AI. I don't know how to compose anything other than drums, and I'm a decent lyricist. That's it. That's all I got going for me. So that really hurt. The other thing I wanted to mention is I know when you did the PACIC when you were here this past year, and I noticed you saw Rob Dixon and Peter Erskine play together. And I think I commented on that video. I said, Rob Dixon was my teacher as teacher, and there's a story with that. Now, Rob Dixon, amazing guy. He's kind of a he's the jazz legend in the Midwest. The mayor of NAPTEC. He's the mayor, yeah, exactly. I mean, he's yeah. So there's like this thing that, you know, Rob's always high. It's kind of a joke. And I honestly he probably is. Um, but he's he's the swing jazz legend. Like you don't you don't need to question anything. The guy's, you know. But anyway, the first jazz class I did with him, I was the only drummer. And um we were doing swing. We were playing a classic, it was a Miles Davis. Um, I mean damn if I remember what it was.
SPEAKER_02:Freddie.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, uh Freddie Freeloader. Yeah, that was it. Yeah, and I was playing it, and I knew that I knew the you know, the charts and everything, and I was playing it, and we got to where other instruments were set to solo, and me being again the obnoxious asshole I was, I would solo over them. Or during my solo, it was weckle shit, or you know, that stuff. And I at that point I was so obsessed with Virgil, I would throw polyrhythms into fucking uh into swing tunes. And Rob at he let the song go through. And this is Rob, the calmest guy on the planet. Yeah. Um, and he did this just beautifully because I knew if he was even getting if his tone was even slightly, you knew he was about ready to go through the roof. And uh he he looks at me and he said, Hey Nick, he's a double-that was great playing. That was good stuff. Don't ever do that again. Don't you ever do that again? He says, You play to the song, you're not here to show off. And this, I guess I know you probably did you meet Rob? Did you talk to him at all? Or just saw him play?
SPEAKER_06:No, I I mean I I I saw him play, and you know, I was over in the booth and stuff, but I I didn't really introduce myself or anything, and you know, I was just gonna do that.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, great guy Yeah, the calmest guy you'll ever meet, and he's like, Yeah, great, great playing, don't ever do it again. And he taught me a lot about swing jazz. And what's funny is I ended up doing probably six or seven gigs with him at a mousetrap, because he kind of he actually um does the jazz program there. So it's just interesting that I mean it wasn't quite your situation, but you do have those moments where it's it's humbling. It's like get off your freaking high horse, you're not hot shit, you have to learn and pay your dues and put the work on it.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, and that is humbling. That is, no doubt.
SPEAKER_05:That is like Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_04:And like I said, your guys, you guys had the you know, the Fletcher from Whiplash kind of vibe. Um not you guys, I meant your teachers. Your teachers, not you guys. Um you kind of look like Fletcher a little bit.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I've got the JK. You got the JK Simmons look. Yeah. Um, but no, I have to also interject that I auditioned at IU for that same school of music and got what's called a D100. Yeah. Deficient 100. Did you really they did not take me in? Yeah. Wow. So that's pretty cool. But I but I think I think you're you're guided. I mean, we can't get into that. That's a whole nother thing. But I do think that a lot of the the failures in your life will head you down the right path. You just gotta kind of be open to it. And I think that's worked for you as well.
SPEAKER_04:So And I think one thing that I I you know, I know we're probably needing to wrap this up, which is totally fine. I don't want to keep you longer. No, but one thing I want to ask you about is I know you I I think I asked you actually in a master class. And I think I mentioned like the videos out there, because I think you touched on it, but I want to see if you would would double down on make sure I interpreted it correctly. Um, you have all these Am I doing the bear? Okay. No, I'm um I know you have a lot of these, uh, the big thing out there right now is the patterns. So right, left foot, left, you know, all the stickings. All of the content creators. Right. All the big content creators, unlike yourself and some others that actually those are the ones I gravitate towards. Um, I don't watch those sticking videos.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:What's unique? Well, that's what I like about your chop builders course, is that you give the foundational pattern, but then you you leave the opportunity for improvising with it. The way these guys are doing this is it's this tom, this tom, this tom floor, you know, and it's like there's no room for expression. And those videos are just rampant on social media. Yeah. And I cannot stand that. I will not watch them, I get nothing out of it because again, your approach and even yours to teaching just a pattern, and then you experiment with it, and JP Bouvet's site is great about that. You know, it's like teaching you the basics and then how to improvise with it. There's the talent, there's the skill. And unfortunately, I think part of the reason that there's not a lot of innovators or the gospel chops thing is such a you know thing right now because that takes over completely. I don't you don't see the weckles, you don't see the Vinnies or those guys. And I'm not talking about even necessarily level of skill, it's having a voice. Right, where you have a very specific voice. Like you should be able to close your eyes and be able to say, that's Tony Madero's, that's Jay Fanetchel, this is Nick Nick Witchman. And I think probably the three of us, you probably could. Um, but I don't see that a lot. I mean, I close my eyes and listen to a lot of these gospel guys. I would uh uh there's no way in hell I could tell the difference. And I'm not saying those guys aren't Oh, the fireworks are amazing. Oh my goodness. Um, but one thing I will say, like about El Estabrio. You can definitely tell that's El Estabrio. Yes. Oh yeah. He's got his sticks and he's fantastic at it. I'm saying if you listen to him, you don't watch, you put him on, you know it's him. 30 second note, six tuplet food. I mean, that's what I'm saying though, is that he still has his own voice. Yeah. Um, but one thing I guess to lead to the actual thing I'm saying is that I think that sort of thing also plays into kind of taining the whole drum community. Um, again, because you're not allowing people to develop their own voices. You are giving them the exact things to play to sound like everyone else.
SPEAKER_06:Well, I think a lot of it also is also um the outcome, right? It's the outcome of the people doing those videos. Stickings is the biggest category, right? It's the right easiest, it's the lowest hanging fruit in terms of what to teach somebody, right? Um and and out of context, and this is was my tri problem as a kid, right? Is I learned all these patterns, these stickings, but I didn't understand the rhythmic foundation behind them.
SPEAKER_04:Right, right.
SPEAKER_06:And that was the biggest thing. I didn't have the audien dialed in where I understood where the time was in relation to the rhythm and then the sticking on top of it, which is the right way to do it. That's what Weckle does, that's what Vinny does. Right. I was just doing patterns. I was just doing rhythms. I was just doing and with the internet, that is the lowest hanging fruit. You don't hear if you don't see them focusing on the rhythmic aspect of it, they focus on the sticking because it's easy to change a right to a left or a double to a single or a hand to a third. And then you have infinite combinations, so infinite content.
SPEAKER_00:And it's candy.
SPEAKER_06:It's candy. Look how fast it sounds like bang. Now you do it. It's it's easy. And that's the reason why it's random. It's just because it's easy. Uh and yes, does it make everyone sound the same? Well, you know, not everyone gets it because it's lacking so much context.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And all the students that come to me in the mastermind, I'll say something a lot of them go through that stuff. And I tell them the first thing I do is it straightforwards me. Same thing. Four bars time, four bars solo. I want to see if you could keep that as the first thing. And then I want to say what you do and if you detach from the time. And so often than not, they either go super conservative because they're afraid of messing up, and if they take away, they start doing that stuff and the time goes out the window. And it's like a four-bar phrase, that's like that's out the window.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And so, so yeah, I mean it it it could lead to a bad habit, and that's the challenge with it. And the guys teaching it, they have it. They have it together. Yeah. But it's lacking a lot of context when it comes to it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I just think the approach to that is what I I guess that's my biggest issue is is the approach to it. It's it's not leaving, they're not even pr you know, they're not even presenting it as, you know, this is how you would use it in a musical context. You see the pattern, you they a lot of times they'll play it to a metronome, speed it up, slow it down, and that's it. What I love about just like your polyrhythm thing, objectively, like what is the the uh musical application for a lot of that, but you got to demonstrate that. And boy, you're you're the king at that. I mean, I'd say you're probably the polyrhythm king on social media.
SPEAKER_05:Uh well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know anybody who who uh has been as prolific as you. There's it's certainly out there.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you make it very accessible. That's yes, and that's that thing you're talking about giving people context when you can take something that is pretty much over it's over most everybody's heads until they watch your video and you bring them up to. I mean, that's I you're an amazing teacher. I absolutely love watching your videos.
SPEAKER_04:So and that's one of the things and one thing I love about your videos, just like your polyrhythm things, and I'd say El Estoprio and some of those guys in a different way are doing this, is drummer or not, you're blown away by what you're seeing. I can name, I guarantee you, most people I know know El Estopio. They know shit about drums, but they're like, oh my god. And it makes me sad that no one knows who Jay Scott is. Jay Scott, man, you know Jay Scott.
SPEAKER_05:I love Justin. I love Justin Scott.
SPEAKER_04:So smooth. He's one of my favorite players, and I wish he would do more like your sort of thing. Or I'd love to connect with him.
SPEAKER_03:All of the playing is there. It's just the I don't know him.
SPEAKER_04:Uh-huh. Like, I feel like I know you. Yeah, even without this interview, it's like there is a personality behind what you're doing. Oh my god. Gay's just very stoic, and it's just the you don't even see his face in most of the stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, when I saw him, I was like, oh my god. You showed him to me early on.
SPEAKER_04:And it's just water.
SPEAKER_06:I don't remember the first semester when I remember one of the videos that came up on Instagram, and the flow was just like so. I was like, I was like watching it over and over and over again. I'm like, who the hell is this guy?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and admittedly, he doesn't have a ton of followers. No. No, he's got about 300,000 on Instagram. I don't know what he's like. Oh, does he?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I didn't know that. I was saying TikTok, my bad memory.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, his Instagram's pretty heavy. I don't know what he's using.
SPEAKER_04:Thank goodness, because that guy deserves it. That guy deserves it. But what I was gonna say is, um, you know, you show you the exercises and then you show how to musically apply them. And that, but I would say the people watching your video who aren't drummers, I have friends who are musicians but not drummers that I've shared your channel with. Pretty sure they've even subscribed. Because, like I said, they see your polyrhythms, do they understand them? No, but it's just like the concept itself is just fascinating. You're just like your rhythm, the rhythms are playing, you're like, I don't even know what the hell is going on, but I love it.
SPEAKER_06:So he said, it's the tension resolution. That's what that's what the those odd polyrhythms create, right? They create the time and then it brings it back. And that's jazz. Isn't that what you have is a music or anything that's compelling? Like you watch a movie, the movie is not just like wine and roses the whole time, right? There's guys tension. You're right. My father. You're right.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, tell me what a big twist that was. Um well, anyway, I wow, that that's some great stuff, Jay. And I I appreciate we don't want to keep you any longer. This is this has been fantastic. And um, thank you so much for doing this. I mean, this was such a blast to do with you. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_05:I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, and I is this the first podcast you've done?
SPEAKER_05:No, I've done a couple. I've done a few. Have you good?
SPEAKER_04:I was hoping because I know a while back you had said you hadn't done any.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So I'm glad you have.
SPEAKER_06:There was a young guy who was following me. That was he was just very persistent. And I watched a couple other videos, and you know, um, he was just so so persistent, and he was so so so I did I did it for him. I don't know if I he posted it. He posted it's about going back probably last summer. I think we're um and then I was gonna Freddie Charles was gonna do and and James Payne were doing a podcast together. Uh I don't know if you know Freddie. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I do. I think I I follow their podcast. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, yeah. So so we did it, we recorded it, and for some reason my I was recording the camera on my end because he was we weren't doing it like this. Um and my my phone died, or we're like, I got my storage full. And we only got like 20 minutes of it. So if we're gonna redo it again, and it just hasn't happened again yet. So so we're probably gonna redo that when we uh when they figure that out.
SPEAKER_04:But yeah, that was but no, I mean honestly, it it really isn't an honor to have you and just so fun to talk talk, yeah, to talk to you on almost like a friend camaraderie level. Um, it's great to have that. So we won't keep you any longer. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. Um keep up the amazing content. Maybe eventually collab on something. I don't know. Keep an eye out for this guy's content. Finally is getting into it.
SPEAKER_06:I went down a rabbit hole a couple of times on Tony's page. Really amazing stuff.
unknown:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:Get more out there. That's what he's saying. All right, man. I will. Well, we will we will go ahead and end it there. Um, this is beat the mental health out of it. Thank you so much, Jay, for joining. I am the Defective Schizo Effective. Andy Pocket. And uh, Jay, we will see you later. You want to uh give your name?
SPEAKER_06:Yep, Jay Fenichel at the drummers almanac online. And uh yeah, come come uh come subscribe and hang out on my channel.
SPEAKER_04:And join his mastermind program.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, join the mastermind, study the drums guys.
SPEAKER_04:I know what's good for you. Yeah, maybe that was good. Anyway, as we always sign off, don't look for to the butt I messed it up already. Don't look to the bottle, the knife or the gun. Look to the soul you'll become. All right. Thanks, Jay. Thank you, Jay. We will see you, man.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, thank you.
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