Policing, Mental Health & Stress Management | Officer Manning, Pt. 1

Law enforcement meets real-world mental health. Training intimidation, what police authority really allows (and doesn’t), and how officers manage stress in high-pressure calls.

A candid, on-the-ground conversation about domestic violence cases, victim cooperation, bias, and community relations—humanizing the badge without sugarcoating the system.

Episode focus: police authority limits; civil vs. criminal disputes; domestic disturbances vs. domestic violence; victim cooperation & prosecution; stress management (box breathing); training intimidation; bias & community relations; law vs. culture; officer wellness & mindset.

We cover:

• Training & intimidation: what the academy really tests and why it matters
• Authority in practice: why cops can’t “fix” civil disputes (and the frustration that causes)
• Law that lags culture: messy enforcement when norms outpace statutes
• Domestic disturbance vs. domestic violence: what actually changes legally
• Victim cooperation & prosecution gaps: why cases stall—even when arrests happen
• Mandatory arrest policies: intent, reality, and unintended consequences
• Stereotypes vs. the human side: seeing people (and officers) beyond headlines
• Bias & community relations: building trust without losing accountability
• Protecting mindset: how cops avoid letting “worst-day calls” define their view of society

Share one de-escalation win or stress tactic (box breathing, after-call check-ins) on our Discord "The Struggle Bus" so you can help others cope in stressful situations. (link below)

Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.

Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.

We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.

New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.

Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA

All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI

Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:23

Hey! Welcome to Bottom Hui, ladies and gentlemen. Your favorite mental health podcast. It's definitely your favorite. You don't even listen to it. Yes, I do. We got our number one fan here. First time, no, wait, second time. First call, first long time listener, first time caller. First time caller. Hello, caller. All right, my friend. We have officer, Mr. Dr. Professor Officer Ryan with us today. And you heard him on the last one. We talked about being broskies, brethrenowski's, and the perspective of dealing with my schizo ass during that time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05

Yeah, your schizoass. Schizo ass.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08

Sexy schizoass. If you don't say so to yourself. We won't speak of your ass, Ryan. That'll that'll take a whole podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14

It will be the entire podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16

The entire podcast. I've mentioned it on many episodes prior. You may have noticed. Yeah. Anyway, so today we're going to be speaking more from a professional perspective of Officer Ryan. Thank you. Glad to be here. Always glad to have you. So I have to I want to start off with like, you know, when when we were kids, you were you were an absolute goofball dumbass. And the reason I prefer the reason I preface it with that is because look at you now. You're freaking almost a SWAT. Are you officially SWAT yet? No, I have it SWAT school's next month. So you're getting close. You're getting close. Getting close. Yeah. So I guess like I was saying, like, you know, I never would have thought back then that you would have turned out to be an officer. But I gotta say, you know, as as you know, when our friends and and myself included found out you were going to the academy, somehow it was like, fuck, that is the perfect job for him.

SPEAKER_00: 2:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:15

And uh sure turns out, sure seems like it was about perfect.

SPEAKER_00: 2:18

Best decision ever made.

SPEAKER_02: 2:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

Second best. So being my friend was first. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. That was less of a decision and more of just like an inevitability.

SPEAKER_02: 2:34

Being my friend or being your partner? Well, I was I was talking about you and me. Oh you and me. Right. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember that time when we tried to Gaddafi you? I remember, yes. Yeah, it didn't go well for you. Well, it never happened, ladies and gentlemen. It never happened. We tried. All right. So gotta ask you, because I don't know if I've ever actually asked you this. When did you choose to be a cop? When did you decide that was going to be your trajectory? Because I don't know if I ever actually asked you that.

SPEAKER_00: 3:04

Yeah, so I don't know if you remember too much, but um my dad was in the Marines. I was a baby. He was only in the Marines for four years. Um, but being a Marine, if you know Marines, it's like once a Marine, always Marine. Um growing up, I kind of had this idea that I might join the Marines one day, and it kind of stuck with me for a long time. You know, was going to go to go into the Marines. My dad talked me out of it basically. Literally said, let me tell you about the ass fucking I got from the Marines. Literally? Told me, not literally, but American history ex style. Metaphorically, all right. And he was like, you know, go to college first, see how that how you feel about it, and then you know, you can always go enlist at a later time. So as you know, I ended up going to school. I kind of struggled out in college a little bit with what I wanted to do. Um taking a semester off at one point, but ultimately ended up going to school, getting my my bachelor's degree, and then after school, like I struggled to find find work. I mean, I was applying all the time. I was someone who had pretty good work ethic, pretty good recommendations, and I just could not get into the my field. Um, and it was seeming pretty daunting to the point where one of the primary reasons I moved to Florida was job seeking, more opportunity, things like that. And I ended up kind of falling into a career I didn't really anticipate to be in, which is like property management. And then, you know, at some point, I you know, I just kind of got to the point where it's like, I really I want to do something that I still had that like desire, you know, with the idea of like joining the military that still was like there. I didn't want to, I didn't, you know, was at a place where I wasn't going to join the military. Right. So that was still there. And then I wanted security. You know, I've worked a lot of really hard jobs where, you know, at the end of the day, it's like it doesn't feel like I'm either a lot of upward momentum or possibilities for many years. Health insurance, it's things like that. I was like, you know what? I really just want something that is stable and that I can go into work every day, make a paycheck, pay my bills. Right? I mean it's a very practical way to practical way to think about it.

SPEAKER_02: 5:20

Well, we have to. We have to. We should. We should be thinking about things that way.

SPEAKER_00: 5:24

So this was this was over five years ago at this point. So honestly, I was stuck in traffic one day and I was watching FHP conduct a traffic stop. That's literally all it was, and I just thought I bet I could do that. And that's really where the idea got kind of planted in my brain. And then it was kind of like once I had the idea, I was like, that just seems like a like the perfect job for me, you know? Like this, that just seems like an it'd be a great job. It's it's kind of got like the you know, like the doing good aspect that I always envisioned with the military. Right. You know, like join the military was just like very honorable thing. Well, so it was being law enforcement, so it's like it's a very honorable job, it's very prestigious. And once I kind of got over the idea of like being intimidated by the by the job, I was like, I can do it. I bet I can do it.

SPEAKER_02: 6:16

And uh I bet that would be I bet that had to be. Was it was it an intimidating job to absolutely it had to be.

SPEAKER_00: 6:25

I mean they were you know, it's funny because now I'll say, I don't know if you just kind of cope with the stress or whatever, but I never dread going to work, right? I never work. This is the first job I've ever had where I do not think about how much time I have left in my weekend before I have to go back to work, and you know, I'm just like spending my hours off work, just dreading going to work. None of that. In five years, I've just not had that. Especially I'm going through the academy, there'd be days if I'd get up in the morning, you know, you gotta get up super early in the morning, right? Go to the academy to get screamed at, and you know, I'm like, what am I doing? What am I putting myself through? Uh I would just wake up some more and be like, this is crazy. What am I doing? And then, you know, it becomes very real once you put the gun on and the badge on and you go out for the first time. Yeah. And, you know, you've got you've got a uh a field training officer who's with you through your training, but it's still very, very intimidating. You don't know what you're doing, you know. Um, and so you're gonna go out there with a badge and a gun and try to tell people what to do, and like you don't know the first thing about the job you're doing, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 7:36

So gosh, the the weight of that particular job, uh yeah, that would I that would be intimidating as fuck to me to think about that.

SPEAKER_00: 7:46

Yeah, the thing about this job that is really hard to put into perspective is the variability of what your day is going to look like. You you'll see people talk about this on social media things like that, where they say, you know, cops will be helping an old lady move her dishwasher, and the next thing they're in a shooting, right? I've not been in any shootings, but you know, it is that kind of job where you will honestly you'll just be doing the most I like that you'll go to the dumbest call, be like a dog barking call, and you're just dealing with someone who's really upset about a dog, and then the next thing you know, you're driving 80, 90 miles down a you know, city road trying to go to a call where someone's being attacked with like a knife, right? So it's like the you're kind of always a little bit on on edge when you're sure. You know, it's always there. Yeah. And actually what's interesting is I've always I'm not someone who gets like too ex like excited. I always say I don't get really excited at work, I stay pretty calm.

SPEAKER_02: 8:46

You never have been that person.

SPEAKER_00: 8:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 8:49

Yeah, always been a very collected person. Hyper, but collected. There's a difference.

SPEAKER_00: 8:55

Yeah, so you know, I've never been someone who even on this, like at really any point gets like real amped up during calls. Okay. However, like the more that I do the job and the the basically like the calmer I get, more comfortable I get with the job, the more I realize the like the little ball uh uh of stress that just kind of always sits there. I'm always aware of it. Oh, okay. Okay. I'm always aware of it because I know that it's a problem, and I have to make sure that I'm maintaining my stress levels and things like that at work because as soon as you let that get out of hand, that's when you know you make dumb mistakes. Sure. Sure. I always try to keep anytime I'm going to a call that's we'll say like a hot call or a call that's there's like an in-progress incident that's occurring, and you know, it you get all the adrenaline dump and stuff like that. I will always, always uh prioritize trying to maintain my stress in those moments because that's that's your biggest enemy is like maintaining your stress because then you get a little you get a little frantic, you can't really think clearly. So, you know, kind of learning how to maintain that that little bit of stress that's just kind of always there is like really, really key and important to to the job.

SPEAKER_02: 10:10

But do you have a method?

SPEAKER_00: 10:12

Uh the method that I use anytime I notice that I start to get ank I you know, I say anxious. If I start to feel anxious, and it will come out of nowhere. You'll just feel like driving down the road and it'll just like you'll feel like the anxiousness kind of pop up. This is true for anybody who's in this in this field. Right. You know what box breathing is? So box breathing is um it's a breathing technique where you take five seconds in for a breath, you hold it for five seconds, and then you exhale for five seconds, and then you hold it for five seconds, and then you repeat that. They call it box breathing because that method, tried and true, works better than anything.

SPEAKER_02: 10:55

Wow. Okay. And you think you could apply that to most situations just to help with anxiety kind of across the board? Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 11:03

Uh yeah, I mean I do. Yeah. Anytime I I start to feel a little bit of start to feel anxiousness or stress or like adrenaline taking that, doing that box breathing.

SPEAKER_01: 11:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

It it it's a it's a thing for a reason and it works incredibly well.

SPEAKER_02: 11:16

Yeah, I don't know if I've heard the the box breathing kind of method. I will say, if you remember in uh Wolf of Wall Street, uh Matthew McConaughey's method was I like to abide by that one. Three times a week, you know, or day. It was a day. Yeah, three times a day. Yeah, yeah. Just gotta feed the geese three times a day. It works. I don't know how uh easily you can access that on the job. Uh it's not necessarily sneak off to a porta potty or a quick uh dump gas station. Uh I don't know what's okay. Okay, so honestly, let's segue into like the authority and the limits of your power, because you know, I've I've heard you mention that you know when people call you for the most random, often uh trivial things to handle, uh they expect you to have this power to, you know, make decisions an example you always gave is like if someone makes a noise complaint, you know, you can't technically, you know, make the person stop. Like can you describe kind of about that? I may be getting some of that wrong, but you talk about how power is actually pretty limited in those trivial situations.

SPEAKER_00: 12:35

It's funny that the way that I would put it is people always want us to have more authority than we do until we have authority to do something, and then they don't, they, you know, they don't like that we have authority. I mean it's it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. So a lot of civil issues, and we don't have any enforcement on civil issues, right? Right. Um, people living together, and I I I don't want to go like too, too into specifics because I want I don't want to give people ideas, but you know, property is a civil matter. So we'll have people all the time that are like, well, that's that's my property. They they took it. I'm like, well, you guys were married for 10 years and split up two days ago, so I'm sorry. Doesn't really have any it's not a theft, right? It doesn't constitute right that's not criminal, not that you want to have a civil case. So people get really upset because they don't understand, well, this isn't right. You know, people feel right, people feel inherently when something like when they've been wronged or when something isn't right. And there's certainly times when we as officers look at each other and we'll go, is there really nothing we can do? Like surely there's there's gotta be something that we can do.

SPEAKER_02: 13:40

So sometimes your own morality will kind of corrupt, like, oh shit, I really don't have any power and I know this might be a wrong situation. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 13:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 13:48

Okay. That's interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 13:50

There's certain things I just don't think law has caught up with in terms of current culture and the way that cell phones are used and internet's used and stuff like that. And so you encounter things where it's like, well, there's a statute that you would imagine that would fit this, but that statute, the language in it, is clearly indicating something much older, like an older form of communication.

SPEAKER_01: 14:14

Interesting, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 14:16

Is not applicable to this, like, new, you know, it's not new, new, but it's terms of the law. It's like the law hasn't been updated to specifically address stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 14:25

Oh, you better go answer that.

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

I think my girlfriend set off the alarm.

SPEAKER_02: 14:28

You do you need to go get your handcuffs?

SPEAKER_00: 14:31

We go get my gun up. Restrain her. This is my rifle, this is my gun. But yeah, so we have a lot of times people will be upset because we don't have the ability to resolve an issue or um we don't have probable cause to make an arrest. Okay, they have criminal allegations, and okay, well, we don't have we don't have the elements, evidence of the elements of the crime, so I can't I can't make an arrest. I'm not gonna deprive someone of their rights just because you said that they did so, right? Right. So, you know, like for instance, you have people all the time, they'll say, Well, they they threatened me. Well, okay, how'd they threaten you? Well, they came up at to me and they yelled at me. Okay, it's not a crime, I'm sorry. Right. You know, people are allowed, I mean, people are allowed to be assholes. It's not criminal to be an asshole. Right. So, you know, there's a lot of instances that we encounter people where, you know, ethically or moral, you know, morally that was done that shouldn't have been done, someone doing something they shouldn't do. But that's not we we're not right and wrong enforcers, we're law and off law enforcement. So we enforce we enforce law. So if there's not a law for me to enforce, I can't do anything. And I mean go ahead. And then the inverse, like I was saying, is you got your TikTok lawyers, people who think that they, you know, they know everything. And I'll I'll clee in on something. Anytime anybody goes, I know my rights, or you know, you need a warrant. It's probably they're probably telling you that because they're doing something they shouldn't do, right?

SPEAKER_02: 16:06

Yeah, you would think they would just comply with what you're saying if they didn't have anything to hide, right?

SPEAKER_00: 16:10

You get people who are, you know, obstinate and stuff on traffic stops, you know, they don't want to cooperate with you or provide you with their ID and stuff like that. Usually I I mean I don't get unless one gets too upset, so I'm pretty I just tell people straight up what I'm gonna do very calmly. Right. Listen, you know, give me your ID, I'm gonna open your car door, I'm gonna remove you from the vehicle, and then I'm gonna take you to jail. So you're armed, I always tell people you're armed with the information you need to make the correct decision, so you decide what we're gonna do. So, you know, people they'll you know, they say it all the time, like, I know my rights, I know this and that, like you can't do this, and actually I I can. I'm well, I know what my authority is, I'm operating well within my authority. If I tell you to stop and you have to ID yourself, it's not I'm not doing it to be an asshole. I'm doing it because I have a job to do and I have the authority to do so in that moment. So better stop an idea. Yeah, I would I always tell people it's better, like even if you did commit a crime uh and you're gonna go to jail for it, better just go to jail for that one crime and not stack up a bunch of extra charges. So people don't want to listen. I I I'm always very honest with people. I tell people exactly what I'm gonna do. I I find that it's maybe just me as a person. I don't use deceptive tactic tactics. Um, not that they can't be effective in law enforcement. There's a lot of guys who are very good at you know, being you know, um I guess deceptive in some in some way.

SPEAKER_02: 17:43

Kind of that manipulative manipulative kind of thing, but not necessarily in a in a bad way.

SPEAKER_00: 17:48

You know, some people it's you have to you have to figure out the tools that work best for you to catch catch the bad guys, right? Right. So, but me personally, I'm always very candid with people, and I find that when I am very candid with people and I tell people exactly what their options are and exactly what I'm going to do with each set of options, they typically listen because I'm not playing around, I have nothing to hide. Like if I if I have the author if I have the ability to take you to jail, then I'm gonna take you to jail.

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:18

You know what I mean? Like, I'm not trying to I'm not trying to like dupe you or like you know, I also always tell people, like, here's what I have so far. You know, at this point in time, I have enough evidence to take you to jail. However, I want to provide you with the opportunity to provide your side of the story. I want to hear your side of the story. Maybe you can provide me with a plausible explanation for you know what evidence I have so far. And I always I'm always I that's the truth. I'm not trying to be right. I'm not trying to be cunning or anything like that. Listen, here's what I have so far. This is what I've been told, this is the evidence I have. And if if you don't mind, I'd like to get your side of the story so that I can at the very least document it and then it's in writing what you told me. And if not, then I go off the information I have.

SPEAKER_02: 19:08

So I mean that's that's so that is you know what's interesting about that is okay, let me ask you this before I get to that. You know, you you don't seem like you're somebody who struggles with this. And the fact is, I think the reason people struggle so much to accept the cops who approach it so logistically and just direct as you do, is because of all the things that are out there saying cops are you know bad or manipulative or they're out to get you and all you you know how it is. We you and I talked about that ourselves. But let's uh let me ask you this. I mean, do you enjoy having the authority? Is that something, and I'm not saying to abuse it, but does it feel good in a way to have authority? Uh yeah, absolutely. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

Now, what about that feels good? Because, you know, we are human, right? We can look at something and say, this is wrong, and then I have the authority to in some way right a wrong, or at least, you know, provide some level of closure on a problem. Right. I will tell you the authority is not always great, though, and is probably just as often not great to have. Because, like I said, we're not right and wrong enforcers, we're law enforcement, so we have to enforce law. And I can tell you very often there are circumstances in which someone has committed a crime. I have evidence of that crime, but looking at the situation as a human, like you can understand what they did and why they're doing it. And so it isn't always, you know, it doesn't always make it's not always like feel good, you know. It's not like you're always like, ah, got the bad guy. Like sometimes it's like I feel bad for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:49

Right, yeah. I mean, I don't really want to take them to I don't really want to take them to jail, but well, it's like from human to human, you probably understand why they did what they did, right? Is that what you're kind of saying?

SPEAKER_00: 20:58

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 20:59

Yeah, and I wonder if, you know, when when those situations arise for you, you know, the law has to be right more black and white, correct? I mean, there can't be a lot of waffling in what's this and what's this. So it's just like most things, it's it's human, it's the human side that can corrupt it, right? So I imagine that would be really hard to be able to, as a human with emotions and feelings and and uh biases, you know, not necessarily racial or sexist, so let's get that off the table. We're talking just moral biases that right and wrong. Um that would be really fucking challenging. I would struggle like crazy with that.

SPEAKER_00: 21:39

Yeah, and not something I've encountered, but something that, you know, I've a scenario that I've thought about and one that could absolutely happen is so, for instance, trespass. Trespass is one of the most common calls we go to. Someone's at a business, that business doesn't want them there. Okay. Business doesn't want you there. Sorry, you gotta go. I mean, it's not it it the statute, the trespass afterwarding statutes, pretty straightforward. If the representative of the business or the owner of a property wants you to leave, you have to leave. Right, right. I don't get to I don't me as law enforcement, I don't get to make a I don't have discretion, right? I'm not so if they ask you to leave and you don't leave, it's a crime. I think it's jail. So imagine a situation where you as a human could understand that the reason why someone wants somebody to leave their property is probably not really morally correct or good, right? And maybe it doesn't fit ethically, but it's you know not an an obvious violation of like civil rights or anything like that. Right. Me as law enforcement, I got I gotta do my job.

SPEAKER_02: 22:45

And you gotta put that shit aside and just Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 22:47

Well, I'm sorry. Um, you know, I'm gonna do I'm gonna do my best to be human and explain things to people. Um you know the other day we kicked down a woman's door, you know, right? And uh the it's hard to explain to to people um like what level authority we actually have. And this is where this was an instance where we're like, listen, if you do not open the door, we we have we're gonna force the door open. So if like just open the door, right? We're not lying, we're not trying to fool you. You know, we're getting a ah, you need a warrant. And all right, so we gotta go in. She did commit like three felonies and had someone held hostage.

SPEAKER_02: 23:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 23:35

Yeah, it wasn't like movie hostage situation. Well, rarely anything is, right? It was a romantic situation where someone did want their girlfriend to leave, and so 911 was called, and then there's a disturbance on the phone, and then no one can't you know what I mean. So yeah, yeah. I was explaining it to the victim, who was the girlfriend, who was upset that her door got kicked in because they live there together. Okay, and I'm like, listen, here's X, Y, and Z. This is why we had to do what we had to do. And if you look at the simple facts of the case, everything is true. You called 911, you were held hostage, yeah, you were battered, you couldn't get it out because your keys were taken, right? She's like, Yeah, I'm like, so it's you know, like there's there's a reason why we're doing stuff, but right, kind of going back, it's like sometimes it's not always a great, like, feel good thing to have authority. Sometimes it absolutely is. Sometimes it's like, I am so glad I took that guy to jail. I feel totally I feel this is why I'm doing the job. And other times you'll go, really did not want to take them to jail.

SPEAKER_02: 24:45

Well, and gosh, it gets into, you know, when we've talked about when you do bust somebody and then it goes to the attorneys to handle. And then of course that's a whole other issue. I know, right? That's a whole other issue. I mean, you've got really two parts of what you say, it wouldn't be law enforcement, I guess, but criminal justice system. There you go, criminal justice system that kind of compete with each other, right? Or just don't align so often. Yeah. Yeah. Um and you don't have to go into a lot of detail about that, but you know, that's just something so there's a there can often some state attorneys are they're they're amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 25:24

They they do their job, they do their job well, and I will say state attorneys are overworked. Oh, I'm sure. Absolutely overwhelming. I'm sure they are overworked. So I understand their situation, but there are so many instances that I've had where you know you really uh you kind of feel like you're fighting for different teams, and um you you you don't want that. You want the victim to like there's sometimes the victim's like, you know, genuinely a victim, and like they really deserve uh the state attorney to go after prosecution, in my opinion, right?

SPEAKER_02: 25:59

Oh, right, yeah. Yeah, true, true.

SPEAKER_00: 26:02

So it's rarely do things go to go to trial, they either plead or they get dropped. And there's so many, so, so many times where you'll get it's called a no-file letter. You'll get a no-file letter indicating that the state attorney's not gonna proceed with charges, and you'll be like, I don't understand like what about this they think isn't pro like what you wouldn't be able to prosecute on. And like you do so much work. It's always like on the cases you're doing like all these follow-ups and interviews, and you're you're doing subpoenas, and then it's like, ah, we don't have enough to prosecute. I just had one recently, I put out charges for somebody, and it was a lot of work. The crime occurred in April, and I just put out charges last week, so I can almost guarantee you this is probably gonna get dropped, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 26:47

And that's gosh, not only would that be difficult for the officers, right? Because you know, you're putting all this work in and not guaranteed follow-through with legitimate cases, but then you've got the the victims themselves who can't always feel comfortable that they're gonna get the justice they're owed. Well, correct. So or am I painting that a little pessimistic?

SPEAKER_00: 27:07

No, I mean the the issue okay, I'll I'll touch on two different topics. So one is it makes law enforcement officers, we will be we'll be the the state attorney before we ever even get to the point where we have probable cause for arrest. We'll go, I mean, every time you hear this on calls, well, the state attorney won't even prosecute on this anyways. Rather than rather than us just and it's not it's not like and it's not really like an intentional thing. We're not trying to like it's just the feeling of like state attorney's probably gonna drop this anyways. So like what's the point of putting so much work into it? Because they're gonna drop it. And you you hear that a lot. Uh even I I I say it sometimes.

SPEAKER_02: 27:46

It's like, you you know, state attorney's gonna drop this, but I'm gonna do my I'm gonna do my part, and then they just know that there's not gonna be follow through.

SPEAKER_00: 27:55

The other thing that you're talking about as far as victims, there's absolutely times when victims are just they don't get what is they don't get the justice that they they deserve. But I always say rarely do you get a good victim. Meaning, rarely do you get somebody who is a victim of a crime. Hey, thumbs up. Thumbs up, hey little emoji popped up. Rarely do you get a victim of a crime that is just perfect. Right? Oh yeah, I'm sure. You know, they're they're super like cooperative with prosecution, they you know, they don't have like life circumstances that prevent them from being like really engaged with the case, or you they're you know, people who you have plenty of victims that do things and say things that kind of breaks your case because it's like you know so to clarify, you're not saying you're not saying imperfect victims as you know they were a hundred percent wronged in that situation.

SPEAKER_02: 28:55

Like they are the victim of what happened to them. You're saying not ideal victims as far as how they can contribute to their actual case, right? Okay, that's what I want to say. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 29:07

Yeah, exactly. Um, so you a lot of times you have victims that they're just not they're not good victims. I I I don't mean that they're not good people, I just mean like in terms of being a victim, you know, they're not they don't check all the like the perfect boxes, they're not, you know, you know uh middle America, you know, so and so and well you're talking education, you're talking class, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 29:28

I think that's all fair to say. Absolutely. Not the individual's fault.

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

And people who are used to being victims, anyways. And about you know, I mean these are people that are that are interacting with the system, right? Yeah, they're interacting with the system in some way a lot. So they either like already have distrust in the system or whatever the case may be. So it's really hard to get like a good victim in a case. Uh and the state attorneys, they they encounter that, and hey, I have an uncooperative victim, I can get the victim on the phone, dropping charges. So interesting. Okay, okay the the one thing that I talk about all the time, so anything domestic related, do you know what domestic means? Or should I def kind of like define it? I would define it.

SPEAKER_02: 30:14

You and I have talked, so I know, but go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:16

So so anything that's domestic, it's gonna be someone who is a family member or someone who you've lived with as though they are a family member. Okay. Okay. So they could be blood related, you could have a child in common with them, you could be in a romantic relationship, and the romantic domestics are kind of the key one. We in the state of Florida have man we have to if we have probable cause for any kind of romantic domestic related offense, we are mandatory, we have to make that arrest. Okay. And I totally agree with it. All right, because we are not going to leave a victim, even if it's a minor battery, we're not gonna leave a victim with an offender in which they have a romantic relationship, they reside together. Even if they say, I'll just go, I'll leave, blah, blah, blah, doesn't no. Because they're gonna come right back.

SPEAKER_02: 31:09

Okay. So you have to put a firm stop to that situation. Absolutely. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 31:14

Any domestic any any romantic domestic related offense, straight to jail.

unknown: 31:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 31:20

Straight to jail. So this is where my my pet peeve is when it comes to prosecution, is that that same uh that same rule does not apply to them.

SPEAKER_02: 31:33

Oh, okay, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00: 31:35

We we will have a domestic situation. When I say we don't have a good victim, I mean we have an incredibly uncooperative victim. Right? That that's my husband. You're you can't take him to jail. You guys are you know, mother they're m motherfucking us the entire time, right? Right. Because we're arresting the person that just battered them.

SPEAKER_02: 31:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 31:54

These are not cooperative, these are not cooperative victims, and they're never going to be cooperative victims. So I arrest them and then those charges are dropped, and that person is right back living that individual, right? Yeah, so explain to me how that makes sense. I'd have to I have to arrest them and charge them with an offense, but then there is no um requirement, to my knowledge. Hell, if I'm if I'm wrong, somebody let me know. But to my knowledge, there is absolutely no requirement for prosecution. There's no mandatory prosecution on something that's domesti related. And we have at times like really serious um like batteries that occur uh on on victims that are domestic related. Okay, we're just gonna let that go. We're gonna let that person go. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 32:45

So you explain the situation where the person who is getting battered doesn't want you to take the individual, the aggressor, out of the home, right?

SPEAKER_00: 32:53

Yeah, all the time. Well, you gotta always remember these people are not only emotionally connected, they're financially connected to their, you know, their abuser or whatever you want to refer to as well.

SPEAKER_02: 33:03

Right, right. So I guess, you know, I mean, that situation, I mean, by default would be very complicated. You know, you may be, you know, if you're mentioning being romantically involved or financially involved, it it, you know, it seems like, oh, I'm getting the shit kicked out of me, I should get out or get them out, but it it is so much deeper than that. You know, and that's so sad that you know people will be willing to go through getting the shit kicked out of them just to what save the the burden of having to go through the rigmarole of everything outside of it. Or maybe you know, it could be a safety thing too. It like it's just so fucking complicated. It's so so much deeper than just the the physical altercation, right? I mean those are complicated situations.

SPEAKER_00: 33:45

And you see the same people where I work, it's a big it's it's a city, it's not a huge city, small footprint, lots of people. So we do see the same people over and over and over again. And the number of times I go, so last time we talked, I thought you were you were done, you're getting out of this relationship. Ah, well, they were, you know, they were being nice to me and we were good. We were good for like two months.

SPEAKER_02: 34:08

Well, gosh, I mean, let's let's even let's not go the battery route, but how many people have that in just everyday relationships, right? I mean, it's like, oh, I'm gonna leave if they do this ever again. And it's like, all right, the person, all right, I I good, I got this. And then, you know, three months later, they're doing the same shit again. You get stuck in that rut. I think you get comfortable in that misery, right? Or get comfortable in your rut. I mean, no matter what that is, it's the steady, it's the stagnant.

SPEAKER_00: 34:34

Yeah. I mean, I so I did the same thing. I mean, I wasn't in a physically abusive relationship or anything like that, but you know, it's like wasn't a good relationship, and you make the same arguments and excuses and right, because of the of the fear of the change, right?

SPEAKER_02: 34:53

Is the change the biggest, the worst part of it? It's just that you know, you're with somebody for so long, you've invested, and I'm not saying you specifically, but you've invested so much time and energy and money and your situations just so wrapped up in one another that I would imagine, because I'm I'm not gone through this myself. I've I've got a pretty good one, but you know, I imagine that the change, that drastic life change is one of the scariest parts about Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:17

Uh for me it was kind of coping with the feeling of failure, I think was a big, a big thing for me. Right. So kind of like giving up and saying, okay, I can't, I can't do it. I can't make this work. And then now that I'm out of it, the best decision you made, right? Hands down.

SPEAKER_02: 35:40

But that's the thing, is is getting through that nightmare of a period that that you did or many others do to get to the light at the end of the tunnel, right? And so many people don't have the strength or capability of doing that.

SPEAKER_00: 35:53

Yeah. I mean, I was perfectly capable of getting out of my situation, and I didn't have you know, I wasn't financially dependent on the person and getting right ass beat by them every every night, you know. So I mean it's I understand it, which is why I bring up why don't we have why does state attorneys not have the same requirement that we do?

SPEAKER_02: 36:15

You know? I agree. That that's an interesting kind of double standard. That's interesting. But I guess that you know, as we mentioned, I guess established before is that they are separate entities. You know, so they they sh I guess they're not bound by the same, you know, rules. Oh wow, okay. That was good. I really liked that. That was really good, Brian.

SPEAKER_00: 36:35

I like the stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 36:37

I know that's that's why I was really wanting you on here, because I thought you're so you're so collected about it and so educated and just so professional. I thought you'd be perfect. Um, and I think boy, this is a perspective that you just don't see out there much. You know, you get, as you mentioned, people recording these things, and you get the TikTok lawyers, and then you also get do people really know what the fuck they're talking about, as you mentioned, you know what I'm saying? So it's like that's why I thought this would be so good. Okay, so kind of going into, you know, we talked about how cops are people just like anybody else, and I want to get into that a little bit more even later, maybe. But so you've heard me talk to certain guests on the podcast, and unfortunately, a big stereotype of police officers is the racism, the sexism, and all of that, which I know that very much triggers you to be pretty upset when that is so much out there. And you know, I mean, now fucking TikTok is blown up with the racism AI cop stuff. You know, it's like I'll take my coffee black. Did you say black bam? You know, I mean, it's I mean, I gotta admit, I it's a good joke, right? But the problem is it's one of those things where it's so out there, it's just all we're seeing, you know, and that combined with the actual real footage of things happening, you know, it can't help but get us in our heads, right? It can't help but kind of be buried in there that, oh, cops are just racist assholes or sexist and and all this stuff. So I guess what I want to ask is how common actually is that?

SPEAKER_00: 38:12

So I guess the way I would probably So, first of all, I am someone who is pretty centrist, right? I'm a cop. I'm not like I wouldn't really consider myself like conservative or liberal or anything like that. Pretty moderate. Pretty moderate person. I don't really get too into politics. There is a difference in my You went through your period.

SPEAKER_02: 38:32

You definitely went through your period. I yes, yeah. Can I just establish real quick that most of us are in the middle somewhere? But anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 38:42

I I say that even people who even people who identify it themselves as like conservatives and Republicans, would you really hear them talk about it? You should like have conversations with people. They don't more in the middle. I know it's not you know, it's big topics. Okay, we're divided on those, but you start to get to like the more like you know, less discussed topics, and we're all a little bit like, yeah, you know, fucking eggs are expensive for some reason. We maybe should deal with those, you know. We all hey fucking ate that. You know, it's interesting. We're all living the we all have the same bills to pay and everything like that.

SPEAKER_02: 39:13

And that's exactly it is getting back to just the human side of it rather than having to align with all these yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00: 39:21

So what I what I was gonna say is like, um, you know, there's like the the memes and stuff like that, they poke a fun at it. It's it's absurd and blah blah blah. And it th that's funny. Like those the stuff is it's uh in my opinion, objectively funny. So you find it funny. Okay, okay. I think it's hilarious. The the the guy who was like shot up the cop car because an acorn fell on it, and all the memes that came out after that and the jokes. I mean, that is good content. That stuff is is so funny. Now there's a reality, right, that's being referenced in it, and the issue that I have is the absolute way that that people talk about it. Like the fact that it's an absolute truth, right? Right. They're cops, cop every cops just get up in the morning, we look at our to-do list, and it says, beat up black people.

SPEAKER_02: 40:10

All right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:11

Just gotta arrest one black person today. With Mexicans, you know, like that's right. That's our our to-do list as we go out and we just out here just you know, just right. So that Is so far from the reality. Okay. If if you if you're someone who like has an idea that it's this huge conspiracy or this um sit like this, I don't know, coordinated systematic method of going out and like, you know, targeting specific groups of people. We you know we take we have more like like training, I guess, on racial discrimination and profiling and like in in uh inherent biases and stuff that we have. We have those trainings all the time, right? I imagine it's something that it's something that like it's talked about quite a lot. It's something we're very aware of, right? Because while it's totally, I think, ridiculous to be like, ah, cops are out here beating people up for you know, just attacking black people for no reason, there is a reality that exists. There is an aspect of it that is true in terms of you know, your uh I can't think of the exact word, but you're like your ingrain bias or anything like that, right? Right, right. So those things exist. And then like any job, any job, you have people who are good at your at their job, and you have people who are really bad at their job and shouldn't be doing the job. There are plenty of times, and I have no problem, no problem calling out cops who do shit that they should not do. And most cops don't have a problem doing that. Uh, because why would we want someone like that in our field?

SPEAKER_02: 41:49

Right? Well, yeah, who's got your back or helping you in these situations? Yeah, they're gonna fuck you up.

SPEAKER_00: 41:55

I don't want somebody who's fucking racist and wants to go out and just you know be discriminatory and do stuff. That's not why I don't want to be responsible for their actions. Right. Right? Why would we want that in this career? That doesn't make any sense. Like if you really think about it, it doesn't make any sense, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02: 42:16

That's not to say can I can I even throw this out there that I would say racism in law enforcement would be far more inconvenient, and I'm talking among your constituents than it would be in most other professions because of exactly what you just mentioned? Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 42:31

It would be far more inconvenient. Think about it. Any any given day that I go into work, I could shoot and kill someone. Right? I am dependent and relying on my fellow officers for everything that I do. I don't do anything by myself. I have to be confident in my partner's ability to make decisions and make legal sound decisions. Why would I want somebody who is outwardly objectively racist, going out here, violating people's rights so that I can go to so that I can get, I don't know, go to jail or you know, because I come running, I and I I talk about this all the time. When we go into a situation, we do not have the information. Everybody can look at it afterwards and whatever. Right. If I have if I am responding to a situation where I have an officer, fellow officer who's in some kind of fight, I don't have I don't have information pretending. I might not know what call he's on, I just know where he's at and he's calling for help. I show up, someone's fighting him, we rough the guy up because it's physical force and physical force isn't pretty. Right. And we hurt somebody because it can absolutely happen. Me doing my job in good faith, well within what I am perceiving to be uh, you know, the the within the scope of my authority.

SPEAKER_01: 43:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 43:51

And then, you know, it turns out that he did this other officer did something that he absolutely should not have done, and then I'm the one who responds, and then is the the other cop on the video, you know, doing violating someone's rights. Right. I don't I don't want to be that person, right? I don't want to to you know be responding or like assisting people who are making bad decisions. Right. So there is no no part, no one in this field wants somebody who is reckless or discriminatory or violating people's rights. In fact, we in our in our field, uh we are so heavily scrutinized, you tell me another field where you have so many eyes constantly watching you, not just the general public, but your supervisors. Our body cams are randomly audited. Right? So any at any point there could be something that you said on a call that no one ever brought up and then gets audited by a supervisor, and then all of a sudden you're in you're in hot water. So I promise you, no one in this field wants someone who is reckless, discriminatory, violating people's rights. Because that's not why we're there, okay? It's it's a job at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02: 45:10

So that's not to say Well, you can't say it doesn't exist, right?

SPEAKER_00: 45:15

Yeah, that's not to say it does not exist. It's not to say that you know, people don't have like a bias, whether it's conscious or you know, like intentional or not. Right? And also you you deal with different groups of people, right, all the time. So I deal with you know, people white people that live in trailer parks and are always drunk and fucking each other up, and I I deal with the Hispanics are always drunk and fucking each other up, and I deal with the the you know the African American individuals that are you know, you know, right it is I'm interacting with these the scope, the spectrum of different kinds of people and stuff like that every single day. Every single day, and cops go on hundred. I mean, I don't know how many calls cops go on an average day, like as far as the nation goes. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02: 46:16

Oh, I I yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:18

So different cultures have different ways of behaving and talking and interacting with law enforcement, they have different perspectives on law enforcement, you know what I mean? Yeah, I will tell you if you go into a predominantly black neighborhood, they're generally not very cooperative with us. Okay. That's probably because they don't have a very positive opinion of law enforcement. So who are typically more antagonistic can be those, you know, people from those those areas.

SPEAKER_02: 46:45

So you know, but it's more about the area than it is their race, correct? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's the important distinction, right? So I mean, kind of what we're saying here is one bad egg is spoiling the whole bunch. Correct. Just like any other thing. You know, you got a a very selected minority of cops or whatever situation who are violating, you know, rights based on race. Yet that is an incredible minority. And unfortunately, that just taints it for everybody. So you're all, you know, happy.

SPEAKER_00: 47:17

I think I think there are people in this field who can have, you know, they're human too. They watch TikTok videos and they get their opinions and their ideas of how the world operates, and they're absolutely can be, you know, whether they're aware of it or not, like a bias there. And so they may, you know, unintentionally, intentionally behave differently with different groups of people.

SPEAKER_02: 47:40

Well, so Ryan, Ryan.

SPEAKER_00: 47:42

Yes, we're all a little racist. You know, without saying it, that is that's kind of what I'm getting at. Like everyone has why I said it. Everyone has folks. Everyone has a different life experience, they have different upbringings, they have different perspectives on the world, and it's not to say that they are consciously or maliciously doing anything, but there's people's perspectives on the how things are. I very intentionally, I'm not trying to like sound like I'm better than anybody, I very intentionally try to be aware of like whatever bias I might have.

SPEAKER_02: 48:15

You know, like well, okay, that's a good segue because I was gonna ask you if it's okay.

SPEAKER_00: 48:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:21

Have you are you nervous when you have to go into a situation what's predominantly another race? And like, let's say you're you're responding to a call that um black people are involved, and then are you worried, like, oh shit, does it ever enter your head like if I have to arrest somebody or whatever, that oh shit, okay, I gotta do my job, but this person's black or this person's Hispanic. Does that ever cross your head? No.

unknown: 48:45

No.

SPEAKER_02: 48:46

That's what I figured.

SPEAKER_00: 48:47

Because I'm confident in in my decision making, right? I'm confident.

SPEAKER_02: 48:51

Yeah, because you you see be in I sounds like a huge majority of policemen see beyond any of that. It's about the the situation.

SPEAKER_00: 49:01

You know, like as a cop going into, like I said, like a predominantly black neighborhood, like when you go there and you you encounter like some level of hostility, and I won't even say it's like necessarily hostility, it's like they just don't want to talk to us, they don't like really want to interact with us, right? Right. So, you know, if we're in a situation where we have we don't have a choice, we have to do some kind of enforcement, right? That that can cause tensions to go pretty quick. Sure, sure. Yeah, so just like keeping that in mind, but I don't treat and no one I know treats anyone differently because of their race. We're gonna treat everyone's baseline is the same. I'm gonna start I'm gonna treat you, whatever you give me, I'm giving you back. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 49:41

I know you've said that a lot. That's a big mantra of yours.

SPEAKER_00: 49:44

I so I'm confident in my decision making, and I know that I'm not there to harass them because of their skin color. I'm there because there's a legitimate reason for me to be there. And well, you're not there to harass them, period.

SPEAKER_02: 49:59

Yeah, so that's not your job.

SPEAKER_00: 50:01

So I the number of times that I hear that I am racist or this or that, or I'm I'm profiling them, or I'm arresting them because they're black, that's all the time. I'm not worried what other people do.

unknown: 50:17

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 50:17

I don't care what other people say or other people do, I'm confident my decision making, and I'm confident that when I go into those situations, I'm going to handle that situation no differently than I would any other situation. Right. Most of the time, people determine the outcome of a call. Really.

SPEAKER_02: 50:36

I mean, people makes the call determines the outcome of it or No, I mean like the way people behave determines how that that call ends up working out.

SPEAKER_00: 50:46

Because like I said, if you if I have to take you to jail for something, I'm gonna take you to jail, there's not any minds or butts about it. Yeah, it's not like there's another situation you can just talk your way out of or fight your way out of. Right. So, you know, it it doesn't make sense to me. People always do it, but it's like you get into a fight with cops and you try to run from them, or you you know, you do 10 other things and catch like you turn a misdemeanor into a felony and all this all this stuff for for no reason. Most of the time, people they're the ones who are pretty much dictating how these these calls go. Because, hey, like this door that we kicked in the other day, hey, we just need to talk to you, we need to make sure everyone's okay inside. Honestly, she probably wouldn't have gone to jail. And then she ended up catching like four felonies. So you know, what when I go to those if I go into a situation and you know they're it's an all black family or dispute or whatever, it literally makes no difference to me whatsoever. I may be just more, you know, I might be I might appreciate the you know cultural relationship, societal relationship between police and African Americans, you know. I keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_02: 51:59

Really any any non-Caucasian denomination at this point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 52:08

Yeah. So I mean that's always there. I'm always aware of it, and I make sure to always kind of be aware of and like appreciate that situation, but that has no bearing on like what I do, because what I do is not going to be any different than it's just me as a person. Like I'm not gonna be any different.

SPEAKER_02: 52:24

Well, and can I can I say that you're more aware of those situations because the respect you want to show the individuals, not because you're afraid of the repercussions of arresting somebody of a different race. Would that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_00: 52:37

That would be well well put.

SPEAKER_02: 52:39

Okay, good. Well articulated. That's another thing that I think is you know, it's it's not about that you're worried about your own the outcome of the situation, it's that hey, I I need to show you that it doesn't matter anything other than what's going on, the situation that's the same.

SPEAKER_00: 52:54

And I will tell you, I know this is like a whole like white people thing, like on the internet, like blah blah blah, but on more than one occasion, in uniform, I've been invited to the cookout. I'm just saying. So I typically get along pretty well with people. Oh, that's funny. And I'll be honest, you wanna wanna you wanna know who are the most annoying people to deal with? It is people who are never been in trouble before. People who have never been in trouble before think they are so entitled, it's crazy. They are so entitled. You know, I voted for Trump and you're doing this to me. Like, I do not think you get that voted for, right? So I'll be honest, like sometimes people who are pretty used to like dealing with law enforcement, they're kind of easy to deal with because they know the game, they know that if they run their mouth, they go into jail.

SPEAKER_02: 53:49

That's so really funny.

SPEAKER_00: 53:52

Sometimes, like really entitled people, they're they're the problems.

SPEAKER_02: 53:56

That's so interesting. I love that perspective. My goodness, that's great.