Family Trauma, Parenting & Schizoaffective Disorder | Kim Wichman (My Mom)

In this episode of "Beat The Mental Health Out Of It!", we dive into the complex intersection of family trauma, mental health, and grief through an intimate mother-son conversation with Kim Wichman and host Nicholas Wichman.

Discover how family dynamics are shaped by protective parenting in the wake of loss and the profound impact of childhood trauma on mental well-being.

Kim shares her personal experiences of raising her son who was diagnosed with a severe mental illness at an early age. She expresses her profound difficulties with managing the loss of her mother and infant child while emphasizing the importance of open communication and support in strengthening family bonds.

She also delves into the complications of medical malpractice and the lasting impact prescription medications has had on her mental health.  

Nicholas reflects on his journey with Schizoaffective Disorder, shedding light on the role of family support during challenging medical circumstances surrounding his severe mental health condition.

We highlight recognizing critical mental health signs in children, fostering resilience without overlooking past traumas, and addressing the emotional complexities of protective parenting from both perspectives.

This episode is not just about sharing experiences; it's about cultivating understanding, showing love and navigating the delicate balance between grief and healing.

If this convo hit home, come grab a seat on our Discord "The Struggle Bus"  and share a fond memory of someone you love, and a lesson they taught you that keeps you afloat to this day. (link below)

Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.

Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.

We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.

New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.

Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA

All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI

Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:22

Here it is. Bottom Huey with your host Nick, the defective schizo effective and Andy Pocket, otherwise known as Tony. Yes. And we have a good guest today. She's special to me. It's my mama.

SPEAKER_00: 0:36

I'm your mama.

SPEAKER_01: 0:38

You are my mother?

SPEAKER_00: 0:39

Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_01: 0:40

Which means you gave birth to me.

SPEAKER_00: 0:43

Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

You did. Congratulations. But she doesn't think you're defective. You think I'm defective? No. You don't think so? No. So you know, you've been through some things, mama. Yes. And some stuff. Which you wouldn't you wouldn't recommend it, I'm assuming. So obviously you're very protective of your your little guy. Yes, I am. You would have made a considerable amount of sacrifices in your life to make sure I did okay, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08

I don't know. I look at I make any sacrifices.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11

You don't think so?

unknown: 1:12

No.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13

Well, I mean you you would have had to quit your job to take care of me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17

And had to spend a lot more time at home and and probably had to sacrifice certain relationships and things.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24

Well, but I enjoyed your company and I enjoyed being with you all the time. So to me, I didn't lose anything. I gained. You and I got very close.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33

We did, and we still are, and that's a really positive way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37

That's how I look at it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39

Like I said, you're very protective of me, right? As a parent, you know, now that I'm a parent, I think I have a different perspective of why and the the depth that that is. Uh and I think for a long time I I understood it on a level, but once you become a parent, as everybody knows, the whole dynamic changes of a lot of things. Your perspective is a little different. Right. As we've established on here. Clearly the gene for schizotypal mental illnesses is in our family. It's in there somewhere. We don't really know exactly where it came from. I know on your mom's side.

SPEAKER_00: 2:14

Yeah. Um, it was her brother's grandson.

SPEAKER_01: 2:18

Right. His was drug-induced, though, right?

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 2:21

That's pretty distant, but that's still somewhere in the genealogy. Um as I've mentioned on here before, and both of you know at this point, there's certainly a lot of um worry I have about Max possibly ending up with it. So I have a certain layer of protection I try to to establish around him. And there's a lot of trepidation I have about him possibly having what I have. Uh when I was coming up, you know, I had certainly some things that when I came out about it around 13, came out of the closet, as it were. Not in the way y'all are thinking, other than Ryan's ass. I'll always go for Ryan's ass. Ryan's ass. I'll go gay for that anytime. You don't have to whisper that. There was a short period where I did question my sexuality a little bit. Kind of that awkward period. And then I wanted to trans and mom and dad wouldn't pay for the surgery. Thank God, mom and dad. Thank God you didn't do that. What? No, we didn't. Well, that's that's absolutely accurate.

SPEAKER_00: 3:18

You didn't want to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 3:20

Can't get away with nothing. Anyway, so yes, that is very true. I think I mentioned that before though. If not, thanks a lot. You literally outed you now. You outed me. So Thanks, Mom. You know, with the the protective angle, that's something that you've never really lost, your dad, right?

SPEAKER_00: 3:34

Yeah. You know, there's still a lot of uh protection there that Well, you still need a lot of our care.

SPEAKER_01: 3:40

I do. I'd say more your support.

SPEAKER_00: 3:42

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01: 3:42

You know, Katie and Max, and we we do need you guys. Uh I imagine because of everything I went through, does that add a lot of need on your end to to need to maintain that level of protection over me because of what I went through? I would say my other brothers, you don't have that same emphasis on protection.

SPEAKER_00: 4:04

I'm not saying there's a yours started so young. I mean, you needed me to be with you at night.

SPEAKER_01: 4:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:11

Which, as you know, dad and I fought like cat and dog over that. But I stayed with you anyway because I knew you needed that.

SPEAKER_01: 4:18

Yeah, that that was a rough time a little bit for sure. You know, he was probably approaching things from a bit more of a tough it out kind of thing as a as a dad.

SPEAKER_00: 4:27

Once you told me what you were going through, and once we sat down and talked to him and Uncle Mark, he started getting a grasp of what you were actually going through, and he you kind of changed.

SPEAKER_01: 4:38

Well, that's what we talked about for years. Is that once he knew what I was going through, it was an incredibly abrupt change. And I know I'm sure he looks back and probably doesn't like the way he did certain things, but as I've said on here many times, there's no more phenomenal father than he is. And I strive to be the father that he is. You and dad definitely had some differences back then, and then I think when I came out about what was going on, there was a lot more alignment on what I needed, and and you guys uh I know you don't look at it as sacrifices, but from the outside birthday, so it was my job to take care of me. Right, absolutely. And and you always you and dad both have always been there for me. You guys have been an incredibly steadfast support system. If I go through my moments where I need to rant like a like an insane motherfucker, you guys are the first ones I go to. You guys are near and have been the most stable support system my entire life. And I know you guys are aware that when I say those things, it's not legitimate. And trust me, you've heard some things. Unfortunately, I process out loud a lot. So while I'm I I don't process well internally because of all the voices, my own audible voice kind of has to trump all that. So that makes sense. Unfortunately, it's a little difficult. And Katie, my wife, has done a phenomenal job of learning that's my process. But you guys have that so established that sometimes I do still lean on you guys for that. Would you say that when I came out about it, were you surprised?

SPEAKER_00: 6:06

Probably not. Only because, like I said, I knew something was wrong. I just didn't know what it was. Right. Because you were terrified of your closet. You needed me to be with you at night. So when you actually told me what was going on, I didn't understand it that much because I I've never dealt with psychiatric patients.

SPEAKER_01: 6:24

Right, but you were, I do want to add, you were a nurse for many, many years and a great nurse.

SPEAKER_00: 6:29

I dealt some with mentally ill patients, but I never worked like a mentally ill unit. Right. But no, when you told me, I can't say it was a complete shock. No.

SPEAKER_01: 6:41

I don't remember you being incredibly shocked by it. In fact, I remember kind of you feeling like, oh, that explains that explains a lot of things. And I told you first, you were the first one, and then I went to school the next day, and uh I was in the middle of class, and I had no idea this was gonna happen. Uh out of nowhere, I get called to the principal's office. And I got called to the principal's office a decent amount for being a jackass. So I was a little bit like, oh shit, I didn't even do anything. This time you did it wrong. I was like, what? It wasn't me. Um, but then I go and and I knew what was going on, and you took me home, and then I great Uncle Mark was there who was on the podcast. He's the Vietnam vet who was on here. And dad, you know, you're all over there, and it was almost like an intervention kind of thing, you know. That was a pretty powerful moment because that's when I came out about a lot of these things to everybody. You know, it was the first group I'd come out about that to. And we had talked, I think, for two to three hours. And I had decided I needed to go inpatient. Um, and I that was the first time I had gone inpatient.

SPEAKER_02: 7:39

And you were how old?

SPEAKER_01: 7:40

Uh, 13. So I had chosen to. I think if I hadn't, I don't know if you guys would have committed me or not.

SPEAKER_00: 7:46

But well, once we knew what was going on with you and the fact that you were hardly able to go to school or or anything else, I think there's a good chance we would have talked to you about going in.

SPEAKER_01: 7:59

Yeah, and rightfully so. Because I definitely needed help. And I but I didn't know that. I I was aware because I I wanted to go. So before you move on.

SPEAKER_02: 8:07

If you could speak to parents, because one of the things that we do is we obviously it's a mental health podcast, right? So with us not necessarily giving medical advice or anything like that, is there any advice you would give to parents? What was your approach with him? I mean, I hear that it didn't sound like you were terribly surprised, but what was what gears were turning? How did you feel like you could support?

SPEAKER_00: 8:32

I just felt like I had to be calm and just be there for him. Yeah. You know, and take whatever he told me seriously. You always have. So I could tell that he was being very serious about what was going on. Then Jerry and I start talking a lot more about it because Jerry worked in the mental health field. Right, right. So he understood a lot what he was going through.

SPEAKER_02: 8:53

One of the things that people do is when they find out about this stuff is panic.

SPEAKER_00: 8:58

Well, bad, but they or they don't believe.

SPEAKER_01: 9:00

Yeah, very true. That's the other one.

SPEAKER_00: 9:02

Because they feel like they're making it up. Maybe and I I think you have to kind of know your kid. You have to know when they're serious and when they're not.

SPEAKER_01: 9:11

Would you say I was a bit difficult on that because I'm such a joker and a No, because you weren't quite the joker you are now. That's fair. That is true. I've developed that more as a persona. I think as I've gotten older because of needing a different way to mask and cope. I think that's why I developed such a your medicine. Yeah. It's the best medication. And it's free. It's available in abundance. No side effects other than you're better off.

SPEAKER_02: 9:37

That's right. But thanks. That was, I feel like a really while some might say, well, that's just obvious. I think there's plenty of parents who don't stay calm and take it serious and really genuinely make it about the person who is struggling. Right. Because I think there are a lot of people who can be a little selfish about it and be like, gosh, how's that going to make me look? Like, what what's the PTO PTA meeting gonna feel like that? Right.

SPEAKER_00: 10:02

What did I do to contribute to it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:04

See, that's why I was trying to deserve it, even.

SPEAKER_00: 10:07

Because it has nothing to do with the parent. It's all about the child. And you just have to be very open and very honest with them.

SPEAKER_02: 10:15

Unless you leave a note that says, hey, frozen dinner's in the freezer, I'll be back in three days. Yeah. Not that kind of parent.

SPEAKER_01: 10:21

That happens more than we'd like to admit, sadly. So you definitely don't look at the things you have objectively had to sacrifice as technically sacrifices.

SPEAKER_00: 10:31

Or being a parent.

SPEAKER_01: 10:32

Okay, okay. I like that. That's powerful. People had that attitude. Yeah, you don't see that enough. I think you have that and I have that. But I mean, you go to Walmart these days and you see these people beating the shit out of their kids and calling them fuckers and all this stuff. Does that drive you guys nuts? A little bit. Does that bother you? Yeah, it always has. You want to do that to the parents, you know. Yeah, Kirkham. Probably. Okay. So now we're we're gonna move on to your past, if that's okay. Sure. So we're gonna start from the beginning, if that's cool.

SPEAKER_03: 11:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 11:02

So you share whatever you're comfortable with, because there's some pretty deep kind of some bad stuff in here that's happened to you. So first you were born in the beginning. In the beginning, there was Kimberly.

SPEAKER_00: 11:14

Three months premature.

SPEAKER_01: 11:15

That's right, you were a premium.

SPEAKER_00: 11:17

You wouldn't know what to look at me now.

SPEAKER_01: 11:20

She couldn't wait. Did you hear that? Yeah. That was mean. I don't mind saying in your prime you were one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. Nothing edible about that statement at all. Not okay, so let's start off with well, you know what I'm going with, right?

SPEAKER_00: 11:37

Well, for years and years I had blocked anything that had happened. And then I started having dreams about it. And they were they weren't like dream dreams, they were more like daydreams of my stepfather molesting me. And that went on for several years. The dreams I don't have anymore. It really has affected me and Jerry and our relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 12:01

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you mind sharing the ages you were when that was occurring?

SPEAKER_00: 12:05

Probably 13 to 15, maybe a little younger than that.

SPEAKER_01: 12:10

Okay. So he would have been your mom's second husband. Yes. And your mom had cancer for six years. And then passed when you were 20. She was 39. And you had given birth to your first son, and he was six months old when she was, right? Okay. So and then your dad was a bit of a distant father, wasn't around a whole lot, very loving, but just wasn't present a lot. Right. Okay. So your mom, however, was incredibly present and and sounds like an incredibly fun individual. I know you'd said that she wish she had known us.

SPEAKER_00: 12:45

She had her strict, strict, strict times, but she was a lot of fun. Yeah, and I really miss her still to this day.

SPEAKER_01: 12:54

I know you do. Is it fair to say you probably never have truly gotten over her passing?

SPEAKER_00: 12:59

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01: 13:00

Okay. So that was the first big loss you had. And if you don't mind, you know, in her final days, you mentioned that she started losing her memory and she didn't recognize you or anybody, right? The story of when you went to the hospital one of the last times?

SPEAKER_00: 13:15

Well, actually it was to her house. Okay. Because um she didn't want to go to the hospital. She'd cry if you even mentioned the hospital. But I had gone over to her house and I had a scarf on my head because I'd been cleaning all day. And I was sitting in the chair in her room, and she opened her eyes up and looked at me. She goes, Who are you? And I said, Well, mom, it's me. And she's like, No, you're not. You're not Kim. And I never could convince her I was. And finally I just left to make her feel better. Right. Because it was bothering her who I was. And I never could convince her it was me. I just remember that because that was kind of traumatic.

SPEAKER_01: 13:54

The reason I had to share that, because that has always stuck with me when you talked about it. Um so she obviously needed some pretty serious care over many years. Pop is what we called. I call him my ex-grandfather because I don't like to acknowledge him anymore, but he was really her primary caregiver, right? And took apparently very good care of her. Yeah, he did. So I know you've talked in the past about how he did what he did to you, but he was also so good to your mom, right? Are you mad at him now?

SPEAKER_00: 14:21

Actually, I'm no single.

SPEAKER_01: 14:23

He did what he did to you, and then of course. Is he alive or passed? He's alive. Yeah, he's still around. He lives in Georgia. We haven't seen him since I don't know how many years. That's when we would have kind of cold turkey cut ties, right? So I just think we remember being in the car and you did confront him over the phone about it. He didn't deny it, remember? It was all I don't recall. There was no full-on denial. And I remember you got really upset when you were talking to him because he just wouldn't wouldn't admit that he did it. And, you know, dad was in the car and he ended up just saying, you need to admit it. That's all you owe him this. And he never did. But it wasn't what's crazy is it wasn't a denial. It was a I don't recall. So I don't know the psychology behind that. To me, that means he knows he did, and he just Well, it's also what they tell you to say on the stand if you don't want to lie about something. I guess that is fair. I don't recall. Yeah. Well, that's probably the mentality behind it. But yeah, we had all stayed in contact with him for years and years and years, right?

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:22

Yeah, we didn't. And I was really close to him. My brothers were, and and you obviously had a really close relationship with him and and were comfortable talking to him. So my question is during that time, and I know you said, you know, you started having the dreams and everything, which is what brought everything back. Did you remember any of what was going on that happened to you during that time, like visiting and stuff? Did you remember that? I didn't remember any of it then. Okay, so it came back later.

SPEAKER_00: 15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:50

And it came back, is fair to say, during intimacy. Right. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 15:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:54

So that's when that started truly surfacing again because of the nature of what he did to you, which kind of tanked your guys' life that way ever since. So And you still to this day miss him?

SPEAKER_00: 16:07

I do.

SPEAKER_01: 16:07

You mind talking on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00: 16:09

Well, even with everything that happened, he and I were very close. We worked together. Yeah. He took care of my mom. I was over there a lot. So I was around him a lot.

SPEAKER_02: 16:20

So okay, you're saying that he took care of your mom and you lived somewhere else at the time?

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

Yeah. I was married when I was 16. I thought they forged your birth certificate. They did to say I was 17.

SPEAKER_02: 16:32

Because you could get married with a parent's signature at that time. So I guess the question I have, I assume a few listeners might have. And if indeed you miss this person, you've obviously found forgiveness in your heart. Do you think it would trigger you to talk to him? To in because I I mean, I feel like if you have moved beyond that and you can build that strong relationship, why are you punishing yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 16:58

Well, for one thing, Jerry would never permit me to have anything to do with things.

SPEAKER_01: 17:03

And to be completely frank, I would struggle to be okay with it. I know.

SPEAKER_00: 17:07

I would too and I would too now. I do missing, but I don't really have a desire to be reconnected with things. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 17:15

And that's fair. I mean, even if you did, that's okay. You know, there's no There are plenty of situations I've had to walk away from that I still miss those people, but even being around them, so like my wife, it would pain me to be around that person. Right. So I do understand still there's that longing for what was, but can never be again.

SPEAKER_01: 17:35

Well, let me let me ask you this. You know, dad and I both pushed pretty hard for you to confront him about it and felt very strongly that you should. Would you have confronted him if nobody was prodding you to do so? Do you think you would have maintained a relationship?

SPEAKER_00: 17:49

If nobody had prodded me, that would probably mean I hadn't talked to anybody about it. It was because of you and dad, which is why I did go ahead and confronting.

SPEAKER_01: 17:59

Did that feel good to do, even though you didn't have to do it?

SPEAKER_00: 18:01

I did, but yeah, not getting the response that I had hoped he would be honest and take responsibility for.

SPEAKER_01: 18:09

So let me ask you this. If he had taken responsibility for it, he said, Yes, I did that, and even apologize for it. Where do you think the trajectory of the relationship would have been? Would it still have been what it was and you just would have had true closure?

SPEAKER_00: 18:22

I honestly don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 18:24

Would you have wanted to maintain the relationship with him if he had been open about? Let's leave dad and I out of it. This is you. Would you have considered that water under the bridge and wanted to maintain our relationship with him?

SPEAKER_00: 18:37

I don't know. I think in a lot of ways, the reason I miss him is because the good times we had together, working together and everything. That's what I missed.

SPEAKER_01: 18:45

Yeah, that makes sense. Miss the good times with him. And I'll tell you, he was a great grandfather to me and then and my brothers. I mean, we had a lot of fun with him. I mean, we really did. It was a good time with him. It was hard on all of us, you know. And I think my brothers, I think it hit harder because, you know, I think they were overall closer to him than I was. And I think they had more troubles accepting it. But I also saw you every day and I saw when you did reveal what was what happened, and I saw the pain you were in and everything. So I see I've seen a different side of how that affected you and I meant things too. Yeah. Okay. So thank you for sharing that, Mom. So as far as you know, you had lost Mama and then she got to be a grandma. She got to be a grandma, and that meant the world to you, right?

SPEAKER_00: 19:26

It meant the world to her too.

SPEAKER_01: 19:28

Yeah. And even in her, probably her fragile declining mental state at that time, it was a very powerful thing.

SPEAKER_00: 19:33

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:34

And I would I think it's safe to say that's one of the most valuable, important things for you. You know, we play Switch, your input is mamma, or your your iPhone is mamma's iPhone. You know, it's always mamma. So clearly that's one of the most important things to you. So I think that's telling of what it meant to your mom, too. And I think you've got to be able to connect with that, you know. Yeah. So, all right, fast, fast forward to the next tragedy, which is probably the worst, if you know which one I'm going with. Brand is my brother. So I've mentioned on here before that I was a twin. I I had a stillborn brother. Um, he would have passed the umbilical cord, right? Got him. So I think, you know, over the years back then, when we were kind of looking into thinking about what could have been the trauma that got me to have this. This we I think there's thoughts that it could have been that. You know, and that's the only thing I can trace back that that would track. Were you where are you we're fraternal? There might have been a part of me that down that I could sense he was gone.

SPEAKER_00: 20:38

Well, and I mean I don't know that it matters, but I mean when I carried you and Brandon, you guys messed with each other a lot while I was carrying you.

SPEAKER_01: 20:48

We're pretty active in there, right? Yeah, I know you'd mentioned that. Yeah, no, I remember you mentioning that.

SPEAKER_02: 20:53

Um sorry, I'm picturing you in the womb going.

SPEAKER_01: 20:58

I knew you were gonna do that, you son of a bitch. Oh, she's not gonna find that funny. No, wow. That's pretty good. I'm sorry, that's very, very dark, but you know PZ said no.

SPEAKER_02: 21:07

See? New belief. See, no, but I share the dark with you for good. I'm sorry. I thought it's fine.

SPEAKER_01: 21:14

Um either way, you know, I will say the the the biggest time I could see my dad get emotional is pretty much any time Brandon comes up. You know, there he is always described, and I think you too, as both the best and worst day of your life. Is that right? That would make complete sense.

SPEAKER_00: 21:34

They had they were cleaning you up and everything, and I had him. And then they took him, and I don't think they tried to revive him because he was already gone.

SPEAKER_03: 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:44

I've got a picture of him, and I didn't want it at first. And they said, Well, I'll hang on to it. And I went over there probably about a month later and picked it up.

SPEAKER_01: 21:53

Actually, I took a picture of it myself years ago. Is it like an image of it? I haven't you know, I don't look at it a lot, but some reason I want it too. It is odd, and it's No. But I mean, you shared a room, boom, for a room, well, essentially a room. I mean, you've always described as you know, when he was coming out, you heard the doctor say He said, Oh no, I was afraid of this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:16

I mean when they when I first went into the hospital and it hooked me up to the monitors, they never told me. But apparently they were only getting one heart.

SPEAKER_01: 22:25

The birth was gonna be filmed by my grandmother. Then a lot of that footage was edited out. Uh when the camera comes back on, you guys are in tears, you know, obviously, and holding me. And when when he was born and and obviously it passed, they did hand him to you, right? So you could hold him. How did that feel?

SPEAKER_00: 22:44

Sad.

SPEAKER_01: 22:44

Yeah. But then what how did it feel to hold me after?

SPEAKER_00: 22:49

I was so appreciative of having you first because you staved the blow of losing him.

SPEAKER_01: 22:56

So if you had had him first, then I was came out alive, you would have it would have kind of been a different effect, totally.

SPEAKER_00: 23:02

I think so.

SPEAKER_01: 23:03

Okay. So kind of to get back to the protection aspect, did losing Brandon, let's leave kind of even the schizo-effective bullshit aside, you and dad are incredibly protective individuals. But what I'm what I'm wondering is like, did did losing Brandon, that's before you even knew what I had, just already put him. Did that already put you kind of at a high, we gotta keep this kid around? Like, okay, we lost one, we gotta make sure this one sticks around.

SPEAKER_00: 23:32

Well, I mean, yeah, I I don't think I could have handled it if I'd lost you too. Right. I mean, that's one thing I kept saying is thank God I'm leaving the hospital with one baby.

SPEAKER_01: 23:41

I think probably the worst thing anybody could go to is losing a child. I couldn't fathom that. And you did. So you've gone through another one of life's worst fucking tragedies. You've been through a lot, Ma. And we're not even through the whole dossier yet. And you were the youngest, correct? I was the oldest. Oh, you mean of my living brothers? Yes. Yes. Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 24:02

Sorry, not trying to exclude other things.

SPEAKER_01: 24:04

That's okay. No, I'm the I am I'm the youngest uh in the line, so uh by seven years, so quite the youngest, in many ways, an only child vibe a little bit, just because they were so much older. But I've always had a great relationship with the two of them, yeah, actually. But when you found out some of the things I was doing to myself, when you found out about my attempts and you found out about how I was hurting myself all the time and all that stuff, how did that affect you?

SPEAKER_00: 24:29

It terrified me.

SPEAKER_01: 24:30

Were you angry at me?

SPEAKER_00: 24:32

I don't think I was angry at you. I just had a lot of sympathy for you.

SPEAKER_01: 24:37

Okay. So you you just are somebody as a person who clearly leans more into that positivity angle on things, or just more of a emotionally regulated There you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 24:50

Handling heavy situations really well is not is not the norm.

SPEAKER_01: 24:55

So no, and I think I got a lot of that from you and dad being able to handle a lot of things I've gone through pretty well.

SPEAKER_02: 25:03

I mean, based on, you know, the ki the kids I've worked with, you've got somebody who's self-harming, you know, like your thing was hitting yourself. Yep. Okay. I know people who I know people who would parent by hitting the other side of your hair going, stop being sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01: 25:19

I made that kill cocktail of mouthwash and shower cleaner and that stuff. You guys rushed me in a hospital on that. Because I'd have my stomach pumped. That was my first attempt. Uh that was that was a little bitch attempt connect compared to the other two.

SPEAKER_02: 25:34

Yeah, well, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 25:34

You gotta start somewhere, right? Start smaller. Always try to improve. I'm sorry, that's terrible. I shouldn't be doing that shit in front of my mother. Um He's for the podcast. But um Okay, so you you were much more um on the supportive emotionally connected side. Dad was more of a rough strict. Very strict. I think that's the way they made dads back then, though. I think so too. I do too. I mean, he you know, um, but my god, he was always even back then when we had some, you know, struggles together, and I went through my period of being a bit afraid of him because he was pretty intense. And I relate to it so much more now, not only as a father, but just being older and understanding being fucking pissed off all the goddamn time. He did have that undertone for years. When we get mad, we it's a witchman thing, I think. We cock our jaws when we get mad. And honestly, I'm aware of it when I'm like around Katie and stuff, because she knows that's my tell too. So if I'm mad, I actively try not to do it because that's absolutely a tell. But that being said, you know, he there was a lot of intensity and and I I felt the undercurrent of anger from him a lot. But now that I'm who I am my age and being a father and everything, I totally get having the undertone of I mean, you've noticed um has my intensity amped up tenfold? Like it's hard for me to keep that jovial, dumbass goofball side of me. I mean, he doesn't really have that as much anymore, but I've you definitely you definitely feel the undercurrent come up sometimes, don't you? Yeah. I mean, he can't keep it all at bay, but he has mellowed out so much over the years. I think age. Well, getting old, we'll do that. But um I speak from experience. Right. So fast forward, we have age 16 for me, within a month of each other. My uncle Mark, your brother, not the Mark who was on the episode because he's still alive. Your brother Mark was murdered by his lover. I don't know what the fuck you want to call her. I don't know either. Doesn't really matter what she was. And there's no reason to get into that whole debacle because that'd be a 10-hour episode. Uh needless to say, we hope she's dead. We hope she's dead because she got off the hook and she got so much from us, right? I mean, she ended up with his house, his possessions, um, his cat, who she let die, and that was the pride and joy of his life. So she killed him by melting down fentanyl patches and injecting it. So that's how she got him. Anyway, that was a whole court thing. We were back and forth, and now we'll get to the next part. So when did he pass? May May 15th. May 15th, 2009. My grandmother committed suicide almost exactly a month later. Your brother had done that. We were going back and forth to Virginia with this court case and trying to work that out, which we were fighting an incredibly losing battle that we had no prayer of winning. Lawyers weren't supporting us, making promises that they wouldn't keep. It's just, it was a nightmare. Then in the middle of us going back and forth, my grandmother does that. And I've described the situation on here that you did not react as collectively as as you had to many other situations, right? Is it okay to say that I took more of the reins in that one? Okay, because I don't want to be disrespectful to you in that situation. So I've described the whole thing on here. There's no need to go back to that. If you want to know more about it, I believe it's episode seven. So if you want to hear that whole thing, it's on there. So not only were we still dealing with Mark's court case and everything. And still dealing with the loss of Mark.

SPEAKER_02: 29:03

Just the yeah, not just the the annoyance of the court case, but his loss and processing losing a brother and then losing a mother-in-law.

SPEAKER_01: 29:12

It was my dad's mom. So that was a rough, rough year. That was the that was a rough year. Um, and looking back, you know, there was so much anger we had that year. You and I have a shit ton of anger towards her for this. Yes, we didn't. And um, other people who are more closely involved, I think, have a bit of a different perspective on it. You and I, however, being the ones who found her, have a completely different so there's that. Obviously, you've been through a plethora of physical, emotional trauma, right? And you still, well, you still persevere. Um now to kind of go back a little bit to some of your medical struggles without getting too detailed, you know, you you had a pain management doctor that was objectively doing malpractice with you, objectively, because he had you on the mass doses of fentanyl and percocet at the same time. Wow, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:10

But I was in no pain.

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

But you were in no pain. But it did take a lot of your mental capacity away.

SPEAKER_00: 30:16

I just never felt that way.

SPEAKER_01: 30:18

And you know what, you were in it, right? You had really, really bad pain, and still do. Like you have a pain pump now. You went through having a stimulator and you've had other health issues. You had really bad teeth for a while, and among other things. So you've had your share of the physical pain too. But that is when you say objectively malpractice, like he would get in trouble now.

SPEAKER_02: 30:41

The fact that I know nothing about it, but am massively offended that somebody would prescribe such strong, like narcotics, things that could kill you if there was maybe, you know, one little thing that interacted. That that sounds like a lot to be on.

SPEAKER_01: 31:00

See, that's just one of those common knowledge things. You're like, you tell anybody max doses of those, you're like, holy fuck. But what I don't want to take away from you is that you desperately need it out of the pain. You know, I don't want to take that away from you either.

SPEAKER_02: 31:12

And and I could understand why getting rid of the pain would still trump being present. So if if I'm thinking of the right time, it it did take you away from family moments. It did take you away from memories because I'm sure it does make things a little fuzzy. And as someone who really truly takes on pride in the identity of mama, like that that sucks.

SPEAKER_01: 31:41

That took things away from you. You know, we've we've talked about when he was when he was prescribing those things. I was there when he had this conversation with the doctor, and dad was like, You can't seriously think that maintaining this medication regimen is gonna be good for her.

SPEAKER_02: 31:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 31:57

It had to be all right. And the doctor said, I can do whatever I want. She's my patient. I mean, you were on that regimen for 10 years. Well, at least. Yeah. And by the way, you're on some very strong meds. So I think, you know, we've we've identified as a family, and even your doctors, that those have had a serious effect on on you mentally and physically. And kind of what he was getting back to, you know, those meds taking away a part of your life, then in many ways they have. You know, you you do identify so strongly as mamma, and you're a great mamma. Like your your grandkids all love you to death.

SPEAKER_02: 32:33

They all do. And what sucks is it would have taken your choice away, right? In that you would not have been in any state to even make a choice as to whether to be involved in something or not involved in something, right? If you're on the max doses of two really strong narcotics. Yeah. Like that your the last time you had a choice would have been when you said, okay, we can go on those meds. Like from that point on, just he was pulling the strings and control.

SPEAKER_01: 33:03

And you know, since you've had doctors since, you've had doctors who have really tried outside of drugging the shit out of you, really tried alternatives, right? That's the way to do it. For one thing, I gotta say, you're one of the most calm and grounding people to me. You know, you you know somebody I can just talk to and I would suck at night. And you know, honestly, like sometimes our conversations aren't real back and forth or interactive, but you're an incredible listener, and I know there's no judgment, and you're uh you've always been one of the more strong comforts to me and still are. When I see you, sometimes it makes me sad to see you sometimes. And you're you know, you watch TV a lot, you know, you're you're isolated a lot, and I've encouraged you to to reach out to people and it's hard for you to do that, and people don't follow up either, you know. It's hard. It's no secret. I've told you before, you know, it makes me sad to see you like that. And because I remember how vibrant you were, and you were pretty spunky and you know, witty and all those things. To see those to see those faculties over the years just kind of dwindle, it's hard because I know a lot of it came down to the massive medication. Oh, the after effects, yeah. The after effects of it. So it wasn't your fault, you know, but it is hard to see that that happened to you. What I will say is everybody who knows you thinks you are one of the most caring, loving individuals that exist. Katie has nothing but the most admiration, respect, and love for you as as one of the most caring people. Love her too. So you you have maintained that above all else. So that is so core to your who you are is to be that motherly figure.

SPEAKER_02: 34:40

Yeah. Kept me grounded through a couple marriages, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 34:43

You you would have been at a lot of those lunches and dinners and she would give it and give it to me for the yeah. Yeah, back then she did you did. I mean, that's what I'm saying is it's hard to see that that person is so diluted, you know, now and it's not your fault, you know. But I know you've mentioned that you're afraid to hold Max because you're afraid you couldn't you couldn't hold him. Your physical ability would would be a little tough with that. And I know you're very limited in your energy and the way you're the amount you're able to interact and things like that. So is that something that's on your mind a lot when you're with in it with the grandkids or with us or I mean I think about it at times.

SPEAKER_00: 35:20

And yeah, when we're all together, it's kind of hard because I d I can't get down on the floor and play. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 35:27

I don't I don't know if I can I could barely do it. But I know what you mean. But you know, your your lifestyle for the last several years has been very sedentary. It's been very watching your shows a lot. You know, you lean heavily into that. Now you still do your appointments on your own and still pay some bills and and things around the house a little bit and then go out and do your store trips and everything. So it's not like you're homebound. I want to establish that. But I wondered if you've thought about why you lean so heavily into mainly that. Not really. Why do you think you do?

SPEAKER_00: 35:58

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 35:59

Do you is it a comfort? Is it mind-numbing a bit?

SPEAKER_00: 36:02

Well, I watch the same shows day after day.

SPEAKER_01: 36:05

And you've seen them already? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:08

Everything I watch I've seen before.

SPEAKER_01: 36:10

But you would say you're not a depressed person, right? No. You don't think you're depressed. No. I don't really feel like I ever get really damned. You don't really think so? Mm-hmm. It's just hard to see it like that. You know, it is. I want you to maintain what you've got, you know, as long as you can. So you can be involved with me and the kiddos. And I, for a long time, wondered if you didn't want to commit suicide.

SPEAKER_00: 36:32

You have never never, ever, ever crossed my mind. If I was gonna commit suicide, I would have done it when I was on a purpose set.

SPEAKER_01: 36:38

Why do you think that?

SPEAKER_00: 36:39

Because that'd have been the best thing for me to have done. Die pain-free.

SPEAKER_01: 36:43

That's an interesting mentality, is that you would have wanted to have gone once the pain was gone. I mean, I know the biggest struggle health-wise, mental, physical, has been your pain, right? I know that gets in the way of a lot of things now. I will say, you know, you you may be a bit sedentary and isolated and kind of do your TV shows, but Katie would tell you and I would tell you, and I think people who know you would say, you're a fucking resilient person. You're one of the most resilient people I know. And I think I've often thought about, you know, all of the trauma and and the medicine and the physical pain and all of the things together have kind of culminated in numbing you a bit. You know, it's just like, you know, it's something to think about. That's all. Either way, I I couldn't ask for a better mother or father. But since you're here, we'll talk about you. Dad ever gets his ugly ass on the show. I can tell him in front of everybody that I love him too. You're an incredible person. I've always thought that about you. And I hope through this episode and and hearing the things you've been through and and the way you've handled it, and that people can get some inspiration and uh see your strength, you know. And to see that we all go through the struggles. That's the beautiful thing about this show. Everybody who's been on this show isn't mentally ill. We're all a little crazy. A little. Um it's a spectrum. Yeah. Um, but we've all been through some stuff. There's not been a single person on the show who hasn't had it made. Made. And I have yet to. You know what? We need to. If you're out there have had it made, get on here and tell us what your fucking secret is. Anyway, thanks again, mama. Welcome, baby. Love you. Thank you for watching. This is the Defective Schizo Effective Nick. An indie pocket. Don't you? And this is Mama. So long. Don't look to the bottle of the knife or the gun. Look to the soul you'll become. Stay tuned for the next episode. They are by.