Cyberbullying & Kids’ Mental Health | Mike & Jeff, Pt. 1

In this eye-opening episode, hosts dive deep into the intersection of cyberbullying and kids’ mental health, unpacking how bullying in the digital age has evolved and intensified. Join Mike and Jeff, longtime friends and experienced mental health professionals, as they explore the pervasive impact of online harassment on anxiety, depression, and identity pressures among youth. 

We examine the school-to-prison pipeline and the increasing involvement of law enforcement in educational settings. Parents and caregivers will discover practical strategies for recognizing early signs of mental distress, understanding when formal diagnoses are beneficial, and managing conflicts without escalating them. The discussion also extends to workplace mental health challenges faced by young adults and the pitfalls of digital communication, including why text fights spiral and how humor can diffuse tension.

Accountability stands out not as punishment, but as a catalyst for lasting behavior change across families, schools, and communities. If you’re seeking no-nonsense, practical steps to build safer and more supportive environments for children navigating bullying and mental health challenges, this episode is a must-listen. Don’t miss Part 2, which will focus on empathy training and community-level solutions to these critical issues.

Turn text fights into calm conversations. Come to our Discord, "The Struggle Bus" with Mike, Jeff and your hosts! Let's commit to one reset (tone check, “call > text” for conflict, or a 10-minute cool-off), and we’ll hold you to it—gently. (link below)

Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.

Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.

We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.

New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.

Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA

All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI

Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:22

Here we go. Bottom hooy. We're back. Beat the mental health out of it. We have uh very special guests with us today. Of course, Indy Pocket, Tony is with us. Uh you have your host, the defective schizo effective aka Nick. And we have two special guests with us today. I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. All right. Doctor to each other.

SPEAKER_02: 0:46

I'm Mike. Uh I am a therapist with kids. I've been a therapist uh with a lot of different age ranges and presentation presenting issues for going on 20 years.

SPEAKER_01: 0:59

So and I'm Jeff. Uh I have experience being a mental health technician at a rehab facility and several years as an RBT working in the ABA field with uh kids with autism or on the on the spectrum. I currently work in the the tech field though. Um a lot of a lot of school stuff. So nice.

SPEAKER_03: 1:21

Okay, cool. And then you know Tony and I's history of some of the mental health work we've done and Tony continues to do, and I'm just mentally ill, so it's perfect. So here we go. That's work. The primary topic today, gonna give the bare bones of it, and we're gonna go to town is essentially bullying and cyberbullying and everything around that. I'm sure we'll take it in a billion different directions. As we always do. So buckle up, and here we go. Or where should you pants up? Unbuckle your pants.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54

Well gotta get coffee. I think the shit that made me think about this when Tony, when I reached out to Tony to see what was up, because God love this man. We've worked. It's been what? I've known you going on almost 10 years. Yeah, about a decade ago, which is time flies. It's funny. You know, the with the whole changes and things that are going on around Indianapolis with some of the closures and mental health centers, places I've worked, places that Tony's working, I reached out to make sure that he, as a friend, was doing okay. And then I found out about the awesome work that you guys are doing here. And so, like being 80 and probably on the spectrum and a whole bunch of other shit going too, my brain started going a mile a minute. Um, and working with kids, um it's a very different place now. Uh, because I was a kid who was bullied when I was growing up. Um, I mean, I'm I was always a large kid, I was always a smart kid, kind of a smart ass. That didn't not at all, not at all. And we also paired that with the fact that my dad moved like every four years. So I was being introduced to a new set of faces and people every four years. New friends. Yeah, exactly. So, like being the smart person, being the big person, being the person who was kind of outgoing, being the person who was trying to be funny, didn't always make friends. Um, and you know, but the difference was as opposed to the kids that I work with now, and primarily right now that's kindergarten through fourth grade. But I have a lot of experience working mostly with middle school cage kids. I could go home. I got to go home for eight hours and get away from it. If somebody didn't have my phone number and they couldn't rotodial it, rotodial, you're not that damn. I am that old. We had one on the fucking wall. Oh, geez. Yeah, with the long ass cord to walk all the way through the house with. Yes. No, I am that old. Yeah, my grandfather. I just turned 40 five this year. I just turned 45 this year. Um, so yeah, I am that old, unfortunately. If they didn't have my phone number or they didn't know where I lived, right, fuck them for the next night, next eight hours. Right. I would be up with them in the morning. You you had time to heal. Yeah. I had time to get away from it. I had time to cope. I had time to figure out what's going on. I had support at home. God love them. Like my parents are great people, um, still are to this day, haven't always seen eye to eye, obviously. I think that's kids and parents across the board. But, you know, I always knew my parents have my back. And I feel like while I am blessed enough to work with a lot of families who really do have that, the change in society right now, you know, there's a lot of times where kids are raising kids, where parents who weren't parented or are parenting kids.

SPEAKER_03: 4:44

Well, we've seen that on our show. Yeah. Guessed we'd had.

SPEAKER_02: 4:48

Yeah. So, and I think it's just one of those where the shift has changed from, you know, environmentally, kids are put through a lot more. Like Instagram, TikTok, like having kids go home and be tagged in something where there's three people that torment them all day, are talking shit about them on social media. Right. Shows up. And it shows up. And guess what? You get tagged, and everybody in your grade gets tagged. Right. And sometimes it's the same fucking day. You're going at 9 a.m. And by noon, this shit's been passed around school. Right. And everybody's sitting there talking shit about you in class, talking shit about you in the hallway, showing the video to you, actively watching the video in front of you. Like that's that does something to a kid. And the age-old adage, the age-old way that we've taught kids or told talk to kids about dealing with bullying is just just you know, just get over it, just ignore it. Ignore them, they'll stop. How do you ignore the constant barrage from everywhere? Whether it's face-to-face from a person, whether it's people that you're friends with going, hey, did you know this was a thing?

SPEAKER_03: 6:00

Yeah, and I don't think I even thought of it from that perspective. Because, like you said, in in our day, you could ignore it and they wouldn't get the quote attention they were seeking from it. But now, if they pick on you and other people find it funny, or they're you're interacting with it in a certain, they're gonna get that attention.

SPEAKER_02: 6:20

Or if they don't want to be the target, that's nine times out of ten, too. If the other kids don't like it, but they don't want to be the target, and you're the current target, I join in because I don't want to be the next one. Right. Or I don't want to be, I don't want it to shift to me. Yeah, you don't want to be on the outcrowd. It's it's a mess. I mean, and I think we were talking earlier, there's a lot of awesome stuff. Like I wouldn't have been on this if this was not a thing that existed on social media. Right. Social media is not to blame. Right. Media in general is not to blame. I mean, that's been the scapegoat for a certain portion of the population for the longest time. It's the media's fault, it's the this fault, it's the this fault, it's mental health fault, you know. The filthy humans' fault. Exactly. But it's it's a tool, it's a mode of communication. That's all it is. The difference is everybody has it in their pocket. Yeah. Everybody has it in their pocket. So you can't get away from it. Right. And it becomes so important. Like I recently switched in the program that I'm working with to work with elementary kids. And the reason I did is because I've always felt like the earlier you can address things, the earlier you can kind of intervene with somebody, the better off the prognosis. And so, yeah, my kindergartners right now that I'm dealing with don't have necessarily always the emotional maturity to handle or process or discuss or do what a lot of therapists or a lot of people would see as good work, but starting that culture of expectation, starting that process of this is what I should expect of myself. This is what I should be able to get from adults, from my family, from my peers. Like I should have a certain way that I should expect to be treated. And if that piece isn't addressed, if bullying or, you know, just the little things here and there aren't addressed, they become bigger issues. One of the big things kids talk about all the time is run me my fade, run me my 30, which is going to the bathroom and going at each other for 30 minutes or 30 seconds. You know, give me run me my fade. You know, that starts out as I'm mad at you, so I'm gonna deal with it violently. Or you're talking like physically going at each other. Yeah. And they think, because they say that, that there are no cameras in the bathroom in schools, because there are cameras everywhere in schools, everywhere else. Cameras catch shit, and then it's also not dealt with when cameras are catching shit. Right. So if they feel like they can do it in a way or places that cameras aren't being caught, it then becomes okay, if I don't, if I don't step up or if I don't stand up for myself, this is gonna continue.

SPEAKER_00: 9:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 9:07

So the message is the only way to deal with it is violently.

SPEAKER_03: 9:12

Well, look. And we're getting that from parents too. Yeah, well, let me share this. So you know I don't, I assume, I don't know. I'm not assuming anything. It's fair. Makes an ass out of you and me. And all of us, so when I was a kid, you know, people love the show. Absolutely. When I was a when I was a kid, you know, I I was also bullied. Some the weird thing was I was I was kind of a combo because I was really well liked, but I had a select crowd that did kind of do that. My dad was definitely a proponent of, okay, if if somebody messes with you too much, you do sock them back. Were you that way? How are how was how were all of you thought that? Well, believe it or I'm just curious back then, believe it or not, I still have his name in my head. I was bullied relentlessly by little red-haired, chucky looking mug motherfucker. And this was back in like kindergarten, first grade, but um I do remember having those conversations and you get both sides of it. The old school, oh, you know, just ignore it. They don't get the attention, they'll leave you alone. Right. But if that doesn't happen, it should be two hits. You hitting them, then if something crosses a specific line, which we all know at that age, you have no concept of what that line is. So it is gonna lead to just out and out violence. If you tell a kid, hey, if someone's picking on you relentlessly, you fight back. They don't have what were you gonna say? No, I was gonna say, you know, the book Ender's Game. Have you guys read that? Yeah. So you know what Ender's philosophy was as he would end the fight before it ever started. Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 10:50

And in such a way that this person never come back.

SPEAKER_03: 10:53

Come back from it. Yep. And that could mean physically damaged to the point of I can't physically retaliate. Or they're so humiliated they got nothing left. Right, right. And at age, it is much more black and white. Yeah. And as you get older, you think that way.

SPEAKER_02: 11:08

So and that's I think shifted to an idea of because most of the kids that I deal with now or work with now, um, it's always my mom said don't be a punk. My dad said, Don't be a punk. Defend yourself. Don't defend yourself. So it's all self-defense. The issue is it's not self-defense. The idea of self-defense has been so skewed that it's not and like the three of us, because I remember they put me in taekwondo.

SPEAKER_03: 11:39

Yeah. Right. And I know that the three of us have worked for a young lady that they put in taekwondo. Yeah. And she should never add that.

SPEAKER_02: 11:48

No, some kids you teach discipline. Other kids you teach to use their fists better. That's all you end up doing. Interesting. You teach them how to focus that anger into being more dangerous and more effective with their punching. Yes, absolutely. Exactly. Um, wow, because I get kids going, well, they talk shit about me, so I'm gonna beat the shit out of them. Right. Like, that's not self-defense. Like, it's not. I agree with you. Self-defense is in if you look at textbook definition, if you look at legal definition of self-defense, because these kids are gonna be kids who grow up to be adults. Right, and then part of the system. Yeah, and part of the punishment. They we talk, we hear all the time, especially in the school districts I've worked in in the last 10 years, prison, school to prison pipeline is a thing. Absolutely. Huge thing. And so teaching kids that dealing with somebody who's being an ass. Like, I'm not, I have always told kids I work with, stand up for yourself. Absolutely. I've been in a grand total of zero fights in my entire life, physically. And it's because I talked my way out of them. And I don't say that to the kids, I don't say that to now as a brag. It's as in it was hard as fuck to not want to go off. Doesn't mean I wasn't angry, doesn't mean I didn't want to beat the shit out of somebody, sure, but it doesn't do anything in my mind. In my mind, it doesn't do anything.

SPEAKER_03: 13:14

Well, it's not seen anymore. It's it's gonna go, it's like, well, you bring the knife to the gunfight. Well, now I'm gonna bring a machine.

SPEAKER_02: 13:20

Bring the gun to the gunfight.

SPEAKER_03: 13:21

Yeah. Yeah, you bring the gun to the fist fight. Right. Is that what's happening? Kids don't know. Yeah. And actually, clearly adults Yeah, no, adults don't know that either.

SPEAKER_01: 13:30

Well, how many TV shows, how many movies don't depict a kid getting bullied at school, and then the kid brings their older brother?

SPEAKER_00: 13:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:37

It it's the same thing. Like you you just bring more force to the fight. I'm gonna bring more people. We're gonna bring a good group. We'll jump you if you keep messing with me.

SPEAKER_02: 13:47

Like that's that's the exact message I sent. I'm like, okay, so you're starting shit with this person. This person fights back. You beat the hell out of them. Their friends come and jump you. Your friends get pissed off and jump them. Yeah, where does it stop? Where does it stop? And at some point in time, somebody has to stop it.

SPEAKER_03: 14:03

Think about it this way, too, is a lot of kids probably don't have a friend group to rely on. That's always the tree too. So you're probably fighting a battle. You're starting this, okay. I'm gonna beat the shit out of this kid. Well, this kid's got connections, so they're gonna come, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 14:16

I mean, it's just I've also had situations where, and this is to me the culture shift as well. I had have had kids where, you know, okay, girl smacks a kid in the face, you know, talk shit about a kid. He smacks her back. They both end up getting suspended. On the day of their suspension, her family shows up at the school with weapons. Wow. Whoa, okay. To take the kid to to take the kid out. Wow. Full on kill full on full on kill the kid and followed him and his family member down the road. Like that this is a thing that's okay. Well, it's just young. Like this is a thing that's okay. Yeah. Like, and this is the mindset that I'm trying to help kids break. Right. Because if you're good luck, adults in your life, you know, well, it's not, it's not working very well.

SPEAKER_00: 15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:09

Um, but if you're adults in your life are like, well, if this kid's not gonna stop, then I'm gonna come and I'm gonna kill him. Like, if an adult is okay with that, then what is the mindset that they're being taught is gonna get continue to like it's just it's even.

SPEAKER_03: 15:24

And see, I get the idea of a protective hand.

SPEAKER_02: 15:26

Yeah, no, absolutely. That's not kind of like my parents would come up to the school all the time and talk to the principal, talk to their parents, all of that stuff. Exactly. But my dad did the same thing. My dad has talked about all the time. Like, my dad will be the first person to tell you when he was in high school, he was a C student. He was not a good student, he was not there for the right reasons, he had a lot of growing up to do, he did in the Navy, you know. But fights for him were somebody's talking crap, you go in the bathroom, you punch him once, and it's over with. It's done. I mean, that's how mine was it's done. Like you just you're done. That's not the that's not where we live now, right? That's not the time we're living in now. And so bring it back. Yeah, how is the online piece exacerbating that? Like, what is nice? What is well? I can tell you the online piece is we have kids that are, you know, talking crap to one another, and then you have a kid who goes on TikTok, and granted it was a BB gun, but posts oh, you motherfuckers, if you don't stop, this is what you gonna get. So it's the threats that get made online. It's the you know, or which is just pervasive people, yeah, people flexing with weapons, people flexing with cash, people flexing with everything to try to intimidate. So, right.

SPEAKER_03: 16:54

So the the performance, the performative piece of being intimidating is then escalating the other person to say, Well, then I'm not gonna stop there. I'm just gonna go to the next level.

SPEAKER_02: 17:05

Or you get the comment section piece on that person's video going, Well, you're just gonna bitch out, or calling the person out, because again, everybody knows who this person's talking about, even if they don't say the name online. Some kids that I know are not smart enough to not say the name online of the person they're talking about, you know. And then, of course, most school districts that I've ever worked in have a policy that if that kind of stuff is said on school grounds, like if you're making a video on school grounds, then we have to do something about it. Right. Well, it's all if it's not on school grounds, how their jurisdiction. We don't even know what happened. Right. So you have kids who are dealing with this with this with no administrative support, right, with no teacher support, because it's a distraction. So just shut up about it.

SPEAKER_03: 17:49

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 17:50

You know, so you have kids who are coming in, we're trying to get them to sit down and shut up, do your standardized tests, put your time in, you know, give us the numbers that we need to get so we can keep getting our dollars. But you have kids that are coming in dealing with being picked on relentlessly outside of the classroom, sometimes even in the classroom. I've been in classrooms like that where it's like the teacher has so little control or cares so little to control and to call out people that are doing things like this, that you have kids bullying kids in class, you have kids bullying teachers in class. Like it's, you know, and that isn't dealt with. Like it's just not dealt with. And so you have a kid who's coming in, this is going on all day, goes on all night, you know. I'm getting one of the things, and I have not had personal experience with this, but I know from people I've talked with, people I've worked with that have kids on like Dust or WhatsApp or even Instagram and things, have the ability to save messages in a spot that is not easily found. So you have kids that are sending or receiving, whether it be threatening, intimidating, bullying messages, harassing messages of a sexual nature at times too, being hidden. Right. So you have a kid who's already stressed out about the shit that's happening in school, stressed out about the shit that's happening online, and then now has a growing script that they can go back, relive, reread that's being saved because I might need this, but I don't want to tell anybody about it because it's gonna get my parents upset at me.

SPEAKER_00: 19:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 19:32

Or it's gonna get me in trouble, or somebody's gonna say something about it. It's just it's kids deal with a lot of stuff right now. I tell my kids all the time, you could not pay me to go back to school and be in your shoes. You couldn't pay me to do it.

SPEAKER_03: 19:45

I've got a lot of trepidation about my own little kiddo when he gets that.

SPEAKER_02: 19:49

I have I have two, a middle schooler and a high schooler. And thankfully, at least from what they tell me, I mean, they've both had situations with bullies. It hasn't been to the point where it's been fights, thankfully. But it's been, you know, it's been to the point where they've had some issues with depression, anxiety, that kind of stuff. And, you know, even doing what I do, my kids don't want to talk to me. Like they do and they will, and I keep that piece open, but they know as a parent, I am a person who's gonna fight for them. Like I'm a person who's gonna go up and cause trouble. Trouble because somebody's got to. And so they're afraid of the repercussions. And they're afraid you're afraid of the kids getting involved. You're afraid of, you know, if the teachers are they're going to get in trouble at school with teachers, or they're going to have issues with administration. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 20:35

So really we just don't even have safety for our kids anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 20:38

There's no actual the safety that we have for our kids are metal detectors and school resource officers. And if you have a great school resource officer, that's awesome. That's not too common either. Unfortunately not. So I I don't know. Unfortunately not. Because what it's started doing is if you have a kid who is in a fight, or if you have a kid who is being bullied and they retaliate, that kid can end up in juvenile. Because now they don't suspend. If you have a school resource officer, they still do sometimes. But what some schools have started doing is arresting kids for that. And, you know, you have a kid who has a record now. So again, that there is no greater outline of the prison, the school to prison pipeline than that piece. You have a kid who's 13 and has a record because they've been bullied at school and they decide to get in a fight and beat the shit out of the other kid.

SPEAKER_00: 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:29

Well, since since, you know, me, all four of us have kind of dabbled. I mean, yeah, I dabbled, B guys have been, you're still in the thick of it, really. I want your perspective on this. So in Florida, um, and you might know about this. I is he the I don't know who the hell this guy actually is. He's high up in the police force. He's probably I'm sure you've heard maybe about this. Yeah. So he's his theory about kind of preventing or deterring kids from doing the school shootings and all this stuff is to so okay, let me we maybe preface it with this. I just had my friend Ryan on the podcast as a police officer, and he talked about all the preventative measures that are in place for school shootings, and you know, they're documenting uh they have a s they have a task force now that is just about kids who have the potential to do this. So they're they're you know keeping track of certain things. So I don't know, that makes you feel on its own. But what I was gonna get at Well, you should talk that's why I'm that's why I'm this I thought this would be a good jumping point. So they what the hell is this guy? This video is viral for a while, but his idea would be, and I believe they've implemented this in Florida, is to perp walk kids in the middle of their school. So if they're making threats, because there's a lot of empty threats. So they will his theory is to, and I believe they've implemented this, is to if there's a child who's made a threat, they don't follow through with it, doesn't really matter. If they get wind that there's a threat of any kind, perp walk the kid in front of the whole school, walk them through a prison, let them know we're going back to scared straight. Right. How well did Scared Strait work last time? Not great. Not great.

SPEAKER_02: 23:07

Yeah. That's my that's my first thought. And before we got too far away from it, I was gonna say the same thing. You're talking about what do you call them? A resource off usually they're labeled as what is called an SRO, a school resource officer. Right. Some schools, like some of the township schools, have a police force that I there are there are people who've been through police academy. A lot of times they're they're former, you know, either city or state or county cops, but they not the mall cop. Not the mole cop. No, it's not security. I mean, there are some like again, I live. Some schools have security forces as well that'll sit out and you know, every time I go pick up my kid, I have to be like, hey, I'm here to pick my son up for appointment. Right. And I get waived by a mole cop. Yes. Um, there are those, they are those that exist. But there are there, you know, especially some of the bigger school districts in this city. The cops wear brown. So they're sheriff's department or they're they wear blue and gold. They're IMPD. And what I was gonna reference is them.

SPEAKER_03: 24:05

And this even came up at the place we worked at where they ended up taking away security. Yeah, we wear security the recreational security in an environment that's already violent can make that more violent. Yeah. And then I'm like, well, what do you do about it? Yeah. There, and there are there are training like de-escalation is the big one.

SPEAKER_02: 24:29

I've worked with uh through the years of my career um and all the different roles that I've had. Um, I worked with the domestic violence population for a while and worked with some trainings on officers on how to de-escalate situations, how to go into a domestic violence situation, especially when it's my focus has always been kids, how to interact with a kid in that situation, how to not, you know, how to present that safe person, you know, and those trainings are available. And I'm not gonna be the person that comes in here and saying, telling people that cops are bad, because that's I fight that message every day because I work with people of color, I work with diverse population. And for a lot of my kids that are people of color, cops aren't a good thing.

SPEAKER_00: 25:17

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 25:18

They're not nine times out of ten, they're not thinking, oh, this person's here to be to save me. This person's here to be to protect me. This person's here to get me in trouble, this person's here to take my family member to jail, right? This person's here to take me to jail sometimes. So there are, God love them, there are great police officers out there. There are great school resources officers there out there. There are people who are getting into it for the right reason. But just like every profession that deals with people, there are people who get into it for the wrong reason. Oh, yeah. Um, and like I said, those training programs and things are out there, and you have people who are, I believe it's like CIT is what it's usually called, like crisis intervention technician or whatever it is. I was through that one once. Yeah. So there are those trainings where they get trained in crisis de-escalation. There's lots of things out there. There's CPI, there's TCI, there's all kinds of stuff. Handle with care. There's all of those things. Anyone that works in a mental health facility, anybody that works with kids or adults or anything that has to have a may have a crisis situation going on, usually goes through some kind of that training. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 26:26

And it's oftentimes multiple.

SPEAKER_02: 26:28

Great. Not always required. No. And so you have people who are getting responding to a call at a school, responding to a call at a house, you know, that don't know how to de-escalate a situation. Right. And draw guns on a five-year-old, draw guns on a six-year-old. I've had six-year-olds sit in my office and tear it up and make threats to my life. It happens. I'm trained to not respond to that. I'm human too. So I'm not saying that I've always handled those situations in the best way, but it happens. So having somebody who's six and going, I'm gonna come to your house and I'm gonna take a knife and stab you in the neck with it. That's hard to hear from anybody. You shouldn't say that to a six-year-old. I don't say that to a six-year-old. I mean, yeah, well talking about scared tactic.

SPEAKER_03: 27:16

Those are those inside thoughts. Oh, right. Sorry. Um you were saying the six-year-old said that to each other. No, and that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02: 27:23

I also I I also you have teachers who hear that when you and God love the teachers I've worked with. Same same thing with that profession. There are people who have been in it too long and probably need to find something else. There are people who have who have just started and handle it well, handle it better than I've seen a 25-year professional, like veteran teacher handle it.

SPEAKER_03: 27:46

It's because they haven't.

SPEAKER_02: 27:48

It's a person. Well, and bright eyed bushy table. Or I agree with that, but sometimes it's also the person. Absolutely. It's the patience, having patience, understanding in that moment, especially if you're dealing with like I deal with kids who have some form of mental illness, you know, because that's how I have to work with them. Like that's why we meet each other. I part one of the first things I have to do with them is to give them a diagnosis, which is also not a super fun thing to do to a five-year-old or a six-year-old. Um, because those things tend to follow you. Certain things, especially, you're tend to follow you your whole life.

SPEAKER_03: 28:25

Can I can I interject just really quick? Absolutely. Um how effective is it to diagnose a child that age? Not okay. And how accurate do those diagnoses end up being in the future? Well, because you're just working with the young.

SPEAKER_02: 28:42

It's true. That's true. The DSM is what we use. Obviously, that's what everybody uses. Diagnostic and statistical manual, fifth edition. Cutoff for most diagnostic information is six years old. Okay. Most things you cannot give a kid until they're six because you have age-appropriate behavior that happens, you have tantruming, you have, you know, things like that that happen. You have just cognitive hormone changes, you have cognitive development, you have communication issues, you have all kinds of things up until that age that you have to put in that are have to be ruled out to in order in order to give an accurate diagnosis. Right. So I completely agree with you. I have to give something. Oh, it was literally just a glaster. No, I have to give something. That's the pe that's the piece that comes into it too. Because we have had going off on tangent, but mental health so scrutinized over the years, and everything dollars are tied to outcomes. Yeah. If you have a kid, and I've worked with kids who at five years old are sending me every sign and symptom of sociopathology. Now, thankfully it's not been many, but where it actually scares me for them the things that are gonna happen if we're not able to help or they're not able to let that. I'm talking about no, I'm talking about in schools. Oh, in schools. Like they're, you know, because like the big pieces of school shooters, bullies, people who are looking at as who are likely to struggle with antisocial personality issues, antisocial behavior that is going to cause them issues as adults. Some of the big pieces of that is lack of empathy, lack of conscience. So I don't care about, you know, I don't care about the consequences of my actions. Right. They don't affect me, and abusive animals.

unknown: 30:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 30:47

Because fire starting as well, some. But those big three are abusive animals, lack of empathy, or understanding or concern for the consequences of our actions or the feelings of others. Those are those big, like the big things that we look at for, you know, these are the people who sometimes can turn into or have turned into the Jeffrey Dahmer, the serial murderers. And, you know, thankfully, I don't think I've ever sat in front of a kid that's like that. But, you know, the people who have the tendencies to do and not care about what's going to happen, whether from a lack of understanding because they're five, right? Or, you know, absolutely no, and there's some of that as well, but it's the the joy that can be shown from the behavior from other people's pain, understanding and liking that I'm having this effect on other people. Yeah. If that's not addressed, and I'm not saying that's every school bully because that's I'm not saying that's every person that I've ever done. It's not a blanket statement. It's not a blanket statement, but it's very rare. But it happens. Thankfully, it's rare. But some of that is innate. Right. Some of that is conditioned. Sure, sure. Because of environment. Because of I'm feeling so shitty because of the way I'm being treated. Why should I care about what other people or gonna how other people are gonna maybe want other people to like, hey, I want you to know what the fuck I'm going through.

SPEAKER_03: 32:12

Exactly. Here's a question for you. So, you know, my wife and I joke about, you know, my wife works with kids. She's been a toddler teacher kind of up to that uh one-year-old to four-year-old range. I don't know if this is apples to apples or not, but kids are just assholes, right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, like, and you're going through teenage years, late teen. Uh-huh. They're fucking assholes.

SPEAKER_02: 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 32:32

They absolutely can't. Right. So I was at times.

SPEAKER_02: 32:36

I mean, I can we all maybe I think people in general can be assholes, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03: 32:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 32:40

Uh but it starts somewhere.

SPEAKER_01: 32:42

Right. And what I was saying, you can't you can't learn what good behavior is without experiencing bad behavior. Right. Yeah. If if you don't experience it from somebody else or show it yourself, I mean, that's any animal, right? Like we all teach each other what's acceptable. And we are and we all agree on what's beneficial.

SPEAKER_02: 32:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

We don't like to admit that. So, but what I think what Mike is saying is a lot of these kids that it is a rare case, like you can't scare them. No, you can't shame them, you can't give them a consequence to stop them from exhibiting these behaviors.

SPEAKER_02: 33:13

There are kids that I work with, and this is not just in in situations where it's aggression that they're showing. I have, you know, I have kids that struggle with anxiety so badly that they get frozen in time. They get frozen in like indecision. Like, I don't want to do this. And so in that point, as a professional, I come and I go, hey, what's going to help you right now? They can't tell me because they're in the throes of their symptom. I could lay a million dollars, I could lay$500 worth of Roblox cards, I could lay fortnight, like Fortnite coins, I could give you unlimited whatever it is that you're into the rest of your life. If you can just talk to me and tell me what you need, tell me how to support you, or tell me what is motivate, you know, get you to find motivation in something else other than what you're going through right now, and they can't do it. It is becomes more motivating to be in that, to do what they want, do what they are in the middle of thinking right now, that they don't hear or won't hear anything else.

SPEAKER_03: 34:21

Is it about comfort or like comfort in the in the typical, comfort in the normal, even if misery is the normal? I think it becomes that sometimes. Because I know just like again, I I make parallels that sometimes probably aren't there. But like relationships, people stay in relationships often because it's just it's the fear of change a lot of times. Oh, absolutely. You know, um or the devil you know that too. So we I think as people are often afraid of the big decisions and the changes that we have to make to get ourselves out of misery or pain. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 34:57

You know, that status quo that, you know, it's easier the devil you know, right? The devil you know. It's it's it's easier to be in what has worked for me. And that is a good way or a bad way. Like when we're trying to shape or change behaviors with kids, one of the biggest fights that I have all the time, and I know we're on a complete tangent, but is not too much, really, though. But is uh buy-in from the people around the person. Right. Because most yeah, most kids that I've worked with, especially kids on the spectrum, especially kids with behavioral issues or emotional issues, like mood instability, that kind of stuff. If I've found something that works, I know it works because my tolerance for the shit I'm putting people through or the shit I'm being put through, is such that I can hang on through your patients. If you are trying to push me to instead of throwing a tantrum or instead of, you know, tipping tables and throwing chairs and stuff like that to get out of doing work or to get to go home or whatever it is, whatever that behavior is that's being displayed is motivated by. In order to get that thing that I'm motivated by, all I have to do is outweigh you. All I have to do is wait you out. Yeah. Because again, eventually you're gonna hit your patience tolerance limit. Yeah. And so whether it be, and I God love the parents that I've worked with through the 20 years I've been doing this because survival is a thing. Survival is a huge thing. Absolutely. That is the biggest piece that I ever see. And I have to be honest, as a parent, I there are days that I'm, you know, maybe I'm not dealing with the level of behavior that I with the kids that I work with with my own kids, but it's the, you know, I don't want to have a fight. I don't want to, you know, I don't want conflict. I don't want to have to have the same conversation again. You don't have it in you today. You know, yeah, I don't, you don't have it in you today. Or in some cases, it's safer. Like I for you as a parent. Even for me as a parent, but for the parents I deal with, definitely. It's the I'm walking on eggshells with a person that came out of me that if I don't give in to this behavior, if I don't give in and give this person what they want, then I'm at times calling police because they're tearing up the house or they're beating up their brother, their their siblings, or they're making threats, or they're, you know, making threats to hurt other people or to hurt themselves.

SPEAKER_01: 37:30

Sometimes it's just about keeping peace and keeping order. Yeah, more about taking care of the actual issue. Exactly. Yeah. Because the kids already there where that extreme reaction is how they've learned to get what they want.

SPEAKER_02: 37:40

Yeah. So I know this behavior is eventually gonna work. Yep. So if I'm, you know, if and bring it back to bullying, if I'm a bully and I don't want to be at school, like nine most times I've ever dealt with somebody who is acting out externally to target other people, this is gonna sound cliche. But it's because there's something going on inside of them that they don't want to deal with or they haven't dealt with. Oh, yeah. Right. It's, you know, I'm being bullied at home, or I'm being bullied somewhere else, or I'm, you know, have I have feelings, I have issues, I have things that that are going on in my head that I don't know how to deal with. And so rather than deal with that, again, that escapism, it's deflecting. I deflect. I go towards somebody else. I make you feel as shitty as I feel, you know? And so that if I can target you and that makes me feel better, why would I try anything else? Like, why would I do anything else? It gives me a it's working. Yeah, it's working. Why if something's working, why stop it?

SPEAKER_01: 38:42

Right. Right. Exactly. That's one of the hardest parts of the work we've all done is showing kids or showing anybody a better solution. Yeah, I mean, I haven't having it work.

SPEAKER_03: 38:52

Yeah, I haven't worked with kids. I I worked at a I was an AVA therapist for four months again. Yeah. That seems to be my typical time in the mental health field guy. And I I didn't get my my feet wet enough to really have a lot of interaction and quote unquote expertise about it. But you know, working with that population is a very different, you know, different ball game.

SPEAKER_01: 39:12

Yeah, absolutely. I very much so we I think the three of us have a list of kids that we can think of that I can think of a a dozen that I spent probably a year or more working with, and I wouldn't see positive behavior results until that nine, 10, 11 month mark. And the first six months were hell.

SPEAKER_02: 39:32

And the sad thing that pairs with that is I have been in positions and in jobs where at my year mark at facilities I've been at for five years, at my year mark, people were coming to me as a veteran. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:49

Because I've been there a year. Yep. So you were a senior member. I was a senior. I that's very common.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

There are schools that I've been in that I'm the third or fourth or fifth therapist that they've had in two years.

SPEAKER_03: 40:07

Okay. I think that's cool to talk about. Yeah, I know it's probably not exactly on topic, but who else is okay. So I mentioned on here, you know, I worked with Tony at our um facility uh for four months and I had to I developed a heart murmur there. I'm a high blood pressure heart murmur. Now, the reason I left, I actually got a lot out of that job. Especially a good nut squeezing. That was awesome. Oh, yeah. Uh huh. That's happened. Oh yeah. So you said I had key nick. No one's been more attracted to me than her. Um my boy, she showed it. But what I was gonna say is, you know, I had to leave. Obviously, my body was physically reacting to it. Right. But you know, I've got a severe mental illness myself. So taking on my own issues daily, plus people who were in psychosis, didn't know how to manage it, and there were situations daily that felt hopeless, you know. I could I couldn't handle it, right? Now I'm not quote unquote neurotypical.

SPEAKER_00: 41:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 41:09

But anybody in those positions would be a nightmare. Now, if I I really liked that job and I loved helping people, but honestly, I turned to the podcast kind of idea for many reasons. But one of my favorite parts about it is I can talk here and hopefully have a bit of that separation to where I'll throw anything on this camera. I'll throw it all out there. But to have that daily, intense interaction with that population, I don't mind saying through me spiraling. Oh yeah. Right. And and this would be the perfect segue for my friend Jeff here. You were team lead. I was. So not only were you dealing with the mental illness of the kids we worked with, was there some mental illness you might have spotted in some of your coworkers? Absolutely, there was. We're talking legit mental illness. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 42:01

No, I am diagnosed with depression and ADHD. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:05

Um most people. Okay. So a lot of people are like, you know, mental illness is on rise, it's everywhere now. Like we understand it. So many people have a diagnosis. It's it's coming out of the woodworks. That's it, that's not the case. Our diagnostic criteria has expanded and gotten better. We are better at identifying things. So yeah, when when you're a team lead and you interact with not only the patients or the the kids or whoever, but you work with your coworkers on a more intimate level, you do get to see for some people it's their idiosyncrasies, their quirks, their whatever. For other people, no, you are legitimately struggling with something mentally. I'm not a I'm not, you know, qualified to diagnose anybody, but I can recognize signs of depression and anxiety pretty well because I have them myself. Right. And most likely also on the spectrum myself, but I can see it in other people in small ways. And that doesn't mean everybody is on the spectrum, but you you get enough symptoms for the spectrum for reasonable boxes. Yeah, reason. You check up enough boxes and like you're you're in the green. Yeah, especially you're one of us in the club.

SPEAKER_02: 43:17

Yeah, especially with the recent changes. Back in the DS, you know, back in previous editions of the DSM, which is like I mentioned earlier, is the what we used to diagnose everybody. There was pervasive developmental disability not otherwise specified, which is the whole idea of you get like three of the six criteria for autism. And because you have three of those six things, this is your diagnosis. You have Asperger syndrome, you have Rhett syndrome, which is only with females at that point in time. Rhett's syndrome was something that only came with women with girls. Now it's all autism. None of that, like it's not the lower the I hate to use the word lower functioning, but the you know, the higher functioning kiddos aren't Asperger's or PDDNOS. They are all autism now, honestly.

SPEAKER_01: 44:02

I I can help you out with that. Yeah. Um, you don't have to use high or low functioning because it's it's a disability. Whether or not they can drive a car, have a job, take care of themselves alone in the house or apartment, it's all a disability. You can instead use higher low support need. Absolutely. Low support need. That's the shift. If you're low support need, you don't need that much help, but you still need help. If you're high support need, those are the kids that I would assume a lot of people have in their mind when they think of autism.

SPEAKER_00: 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:30

The the nonverbal, uh, the self-isolating in their own little thing.

SPEAKER_02: 44:35

I was working with kids that were presenting their communication was those behaviors. And because they were so severe, they were not at home. Yes. They were in a residential setting because they could not be at home because they were dangerous to themselves or others.

SPEAKER_03: 44:49

Well, okay, okay. I I gotta chime in on that. So I've always taken pride as somebody I I call myself high-functioning with what I have, right? Yeah. When I hear this is okay, but when I hear the low support, high support vernacular over this to me, and I I can be wrong, or this is my perspective personally, is that it takes away a bit of the, I don't know how to put this, because I'm not trying to be a dick about it. But wouldn't it go ahead and beat it? It's almost like what else? No, it's like so if I say I'm high functioning, it's that I'm doing the work. And this is vernacular, purely. Yeah, but it's like, okay, I'm high functioning. I'm doing the work to maintain high function. So you're saying it's taking away a certain level of pride, kind of or your system. Like your autonomy kind of like okay, I could say. And you know what? It's all in the words. It doesn't change anything other than words because I need support. I would be a low support individual. I still have to have it. But somehow that does that phrase and I'm just like, damn it.

SPEAKER_02: 45:57

Well, especially in the world of autism, there's so much of the there's so much of life that is not concrete. And one of the one of the characteristic uh characteristics of persons with autism is seeing things very concrete. Yep. Yes. Living in gray is difficult. Black and white thinking. Black and white thinking, you know, it's either this or this. So you get the kids who are like, you know, this person's breaking the rules. I need to raise my hand and tell the person that this person's breaking the rules. And then you're the person who gets bullied or gets picked on because you're telling on people. No, what I need to do is they're breaking the rules. It's wrong to break the rules. I have to raise my hand and tell them to break the rules. I'm following the rules. I'm following the rules. They're not following the rules. Like if we can break rules, then we have chaos. What's the point? Yeah. And then we don't understand, or it's hard for there's no nuance. You know, it's hard for a kid to understand why they're getting picked on.

SPEAKER_00: 46:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 46:46

I'm doing the right thing. Right. Because that social piece is the a lot of times the piece that's missing. Sure. Um, or that is not as easily understood because it's gray. Like it's sometimes it's good to not tell the truth because somebody's asking you, do I look okay in this? You know, fat in this dress. Do I look fat in this dress? Was this joke funny? Are you laughing at this joke? Oh, I ask that constantly. Yeah, no. And like, well, okay. But that's fair. No, I know what's but it's you know, and so I'm not laughing at something, or I'm laughing at something that I find funny, but nobody else does. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 47:22

What's interesting you say that because my wife and I have very different senses of humor, along with some of my friend group, you notwithstanding, Tony. But you know, I I do these, I have very dark humor, and sometimes to me, something's just really fucking funny. And I say something and I get kind of like, what, it's not funny to you, but it is kind of irritating at times. Just in the in the house earlier. Yeah. Oh, yeah. See, it's just like it's hard to accept because I talked about here before I process as much through humor that when that's not what I what I have troubles differentiating between is it's just not funny, but it's fine that you find it funny.

SPEAKER_00: 47:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 47:58

Versus, oh my god, what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah. Right. That's what I have troubles differentiating. Because if somebody simply isn't laughing along with me and something there feels like oh.

SPEAKER_02: 48:09

And I think that's a very human perspective. Yeah. Because it's very easy for I I'm gonna speak personally. It's very easy for me if I say something, I'm my worst critic.

SPEAKER_00: 48:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:22

Like if I say something, if I do something, I am that person who's automatically going, Oh fuck. Did I just piss this person off? Or I hate that look like a fool. I hate texting people. I hate texting people because the nuance is not there. Okay. Like I hate texting people because I feel like if the person's not responding immediately, yeah, they're they're there's they're mad at me. If they uh send back don't do that, thanks. You're about to do it. I think no, okay, hey. Right. I was kidding. Any of those like one letter, one-word responses, I just pissed somebody off. Right. No, I see what you mean. And then even in face-to-face situations, as a professional, I'll step in and do something I think that was right. And then I have to go back, and I have thankfully a group of you know, co-professionals or supervisors or you know, friends in the industry or friends in the in the field that I go, okay, this is a situation. I process it with them going, hey, did I fuck up? And they can validate. And they can validate or go, yeah. And it's not that I'm not confident in what I do. I think I posted on the Discord, I suffer from imposter syndrome horribly. Yeah. Um I suck at my stroke class? Yeah. Yeah. It's great. I suck at my job. I've never done anything helpful for anyone ever. I am the worst person in the world, and nothing I say is ever right.

SPEAKER_03: 49:48

And that is objectively not correct.

SPEAKER_02: 49:51

No, exactly. No, not at all. My brain. Even just mathematically by probability.

SPEAKER_01: 49:56

Yeah, you wouldn't want to do something.

SPEAKER_02: 49:59

A broken clock is right twice. Exactly. So it is intrinsically. But again, tell my brain that. Yeah. You know, and that's that's what a lot of people mental with with mental health issues, that's the stuff you deal with, whether you call it imposter syndrome, or you whether you call it, you know, self-confidence, whether you call it, you know, I'm not doing something right.

SPEAKER_03: 50:21

Right. Right. Like and I think we all strive to be better people than we feel we are, even though I'm sure all four of us are perfectly fine individuals.

SPEAKER_00: 50:30

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 50:31

I mean, as I mean, this guy right here, old Tony over here, suffers pretty badly from imposter syndrome. I'm getting to a point. I am getting to a point here. So I'm just back here like, couch, I was getting ready to say the same thing. You if if you've listened to our episodes before, you know, I talk a lot more than this. Part of that has to do with how intimidated I am by these gentlemen's frames.

SPEAKER_02: 50:53

I love you to death, dude. Why are you intimidated by me? I understand why. No, but that's that question. I'm sorry. That's rude. Sorry, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01: 51:00

But no, I know I don't understand. Please explain how to shut up.

SPEAKER_03: 51:04

But to to just come clean about it. Like I'm sitting over here and I'm enjoying everything you guys are saying, but I'm like, the self-talk is I don't have anything good to add to that. Wrong. So well, and and I know, so I know you don't. Yeah, no, absolutely know that. Right. But I'm just get yourself to believe. But here's and here's the thing is I'll I'll talk anyway. Yeah. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02: 51:29

I think all four of us are those kind of people. But I've absolutely sat in conversations with you in the past over the 10 years that we've known each other and just shooting the shit, or you know, when we've been actually having serious conversations where you sit and listen and then you'll come through with something so profound and on topic that I'm like, fuck. Yeah, you've done that a lot on the show, too. Like, so if I'm a shotgun, so I'm the I'm the sniper, right? If I'm a shotgun, you're gonna sniper you're gonna kirk somebody.

SPEAKER_03: 51:59

You're a sniper. Oh lord, too soon. Too soon. Oh, I've been throwing that around like I know. Sorry. I know. Uh okay, there's two points I want to make to that. So I imagine not gonna age well. I think I think that are you somebody who processes out loud? A lot, yeah. Yeah, same here because I, you know, if I'm not around people, I am processing everything out loud. Sometimes it's very uncomfortable for people around me when like I'm in a very tense, stressful situation because of the voices, I can't hear my own. That's so you have to speak. I have to get it. And I I'll tell you, there's some outlandish shit that comes out of my gets to a good point where it's like, okay, I've actually reached a point that actually makes some fucking sense. And it's actually well thought out. But unfortunately, I do have to vomit the sometimes. The process of getting there is is really hard for those around me. Very painful at times. And my parents and Tony's great about it. My wife has become really good about it. But boy, she had to learn that one. But what I was gonna say is you are somebody, Tony, that you take your time. I think you can process internally, but you take your time to take everything in, and then when that moment's right, it's like there's the there's the revelation bomb. It's like, here's the it's put in a really nice package. My wife's the same way. So like we're talking about something deep, she will literally pause for sometimes a minute of silence. But when she comes out with it, it's put together perfectly. There's no, I don't have to be like, what the hell did you mean by that? It's like blue, right? I'm not that way. I don't it sounds like you might so in situations like this, or if I'm if I'm not confident about something, right?

SPEAKER_02: 53:49

Like if I'm looking for, I don't know if it's necessarily always validation, but at least understanding. I'm trying to get someone to understand my perspective or understand why I did something that I did or why I didn't do something, but I yeah, why I think that way. My mantra has always been why say something in three words when you can say it in 20. You know, I know that to be true. I've never been someone who's been blamed for being efficient in conversation. Like I have watched multiple people in my life glaze over. Same. Like and get to the fucking checkout point, yeah, get to the point. And be like, okay, here's where we're going. This path. And I realize this doesn't help because we're not videoing. Oh, it's wiggle wiggles. Wiggle wiggles zigzag like everywhere, which way in there? Exactly. So I'm not the person in the video game that sees the the like arrow that points to where I'm supposed to go and go straight to it. I'm here. Are you the game?

SPEAKER_03: 54:47

You play video games, right? Oh, absolutely. Okay, so when you play, are you somebody who does a story or you you do all the fucking side quests? Um because I don't I'm a side quick.

SPEAKER_02: 54:55

One of my favorite games ever is Skyrim. Yeah. Uh anybody who's played it, hopefully this isn't a spoiler. Alduin is the dragon that you're supposed to destroy at the end. You can do it at like level 15 because you can do the main story and just go through everything and not do anything else. I'm generally level 60 by the time I get there. Go take it off. By the time I get there. So he's the end fight in most games I've ever played is super anticlimactic. Because I'm so overpowered. I beat this dude in like two seconds. Yeah, same here. So up to the point. So it's obviously a personality. I literally have a shirt that says, I'm not procrastinating, it's a side quest. That's why I like that.

SPEAKER_03: 55:39

So yeah, I think you and I are snapped for that. Yeah. Now, what what I was laughing at Tony earlier when he pulled up his phone is I thought he was going to show you one of my texts. When I when I text somebody, I hate text for the same reason you do. So my my goal when I text somebody, because heaven forbid I just call them and I don't know what they're doing. Although everybody laughs at me because it's like, you know, calling would have taken far less time than it would be for me to read this. Like one of my favorite jokes my Ryan does, you know, I do the same, I do it to everybody. He'll like be in bed and he'll be like, all right, Nick texts me. Like I'll text him in the afternoon. He's like, All right, before I go to bed, I gotta read this novel. Sleeping. I get my glasses out and you know, I was about to say, it's a theme. Oh, that's a long one. The response is nothing. That's not the words. I don't know. The reason I do it, right or wrong, is it's not necessarily about, you know, having to be wordy or get all the it's about details because especially through text, you can't get the emotional. Absolutely. You can't get any of that. Yeah, that nuance. And I try to make sure you're clear. And I try to force nuances in the text. Yeah. Because I'm super self-conscious because I know when people send me short shit, I'm constantly like, well, what's what's your problem? You process everything, yeah. Right. And you've seen me do it to you. Yes. I do it to everybody. It's just like I overthink it. So I'm like, I'm not gonna do that to someone. Send him three sentences, like a full text, and we'll still get back. Are are you okay? Are we okay? I do it. Did I say something? Yeah. I do it all the time. Yeah. But but I think whether that's really part of a diagnosis or anything. I don't think that's a diagnosis. I think it's a personality. I think it's I think it's you should have that concern for the people you are trying to communicate with. Would you consider yourself a people pleaser? Text is absolutely evil. That is that's a very complicated question because actually I don't think so. Okay. I am concerned about people understanding me and my perspective, like we talked earlier. I don't I don't think I go out of my way to please a lot of people. Okay. There's probably a select few, my dad, my wife, certain people. But do I go out no. I mean, if I if I disagree with something, if I don't want to do something, if I morally or fundamentally believe something's wrong, I'm not gonna do it. So I think I I'll put it this way people who are my core, people I care about, or people I know that I respect, you know, that sort of thing, I will do my best to make sure I'm doing right by that person. Yeah. Yeah. But if it goes outside of a certain line for most people, it's like, okay, no, not anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 58:23

Okay. I feel that. I think of my a lot of mine came from um or comes from I am a big people pleaser. And to the extent, like not that I want everybody to be happy with me, but it's a I'm a peacemaker. Like I'm trying to make sure I don't like conflict. I will be the first person to raise a conflict, call somebody out on something a lot of times if it's something I'm really passionate about. But as far as at the end of the day, even with that, like I've had phone calls with parents where they start out because somebody did something and it got attributed to me, or I fucked up and stepped in something and now I have to make it right. Right. So I've gone I've had conversations where I go from the person calling me, cussing me out, to at the end of it, because of the effort that I've put in to try to understand and get them to understand me and make it right. I think that's they're apologizing to me. Yeah. Same thing. Because I feel like it's one of those, um, especially when I'm working with the kids that I work with, I will say something three different ways. Oh my God. Not because you want to make sure they get it. I want to make sure they understand it. And I want to make sure I'm presenting it in a way either it's simplified or in their verbiage, in their language, in their language, yeah, to get them to understand what I'm trying to say. And then I will go, does that make sense? Uh-huh. Like, I'll say it four different ways and then go, do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I got it like five minutes ago.

SPEAKER_03: 59:58

I can't tell you how many people do it. Because honestly, I I was told to do that in therapy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:03

One of my older therapists was like, you know what? Do you feel like people can't understand what you're saying? Say it in as many different ways as possible. Now, do I think that's always as necessary as I deem it to be? I know certain people enough that pretty much, no matter how I say it, they're gonna, but I still do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:21

So there's the framing versus Is reframing that exists. And those are that is a very big technique in most therapy modalities. Right. You know, you take what the person is saying to you, you frame a question so that they can understand what you're trying to get at. They give you input, and then you reframe it to make sure that they got their point across and you understand it to a point that they meant for you to understand it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:51

So I feel like what I do is circumvent that properly. So you know it's like I don't give that opportunity. Yeah. It's like, let me just go and present it to you every way I can think of. And hopefully one of those resonated. Yep. Right. You know, there's no like call and response. It's let me go and do the work for you. And it's like, I really wouldn't appreciate it if you just it's building the clock instead of telling you what it is. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So that's that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:15

Well, to your point though, like how how many people have you interacted with in your life where it wasn't framing and reframing? It wasn't a conversation. It was two people just telling each other things and no one listening. Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:28

Waiting for your turn to talk.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:29

Waiting for your turn to talk.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:30

That's what I get. A lot of my kids, especially that get in trouble at school in school. Um, if I'm having a conversation, we're trying to process like what's going on, you know, I see glaze because I'm like, well, this is why, you know, this is the person's likely what this person was feeling when you did that behavior. This is their perspective. This is why, whether it be school rule, whether it be social rule, whether it be, you know, just anything, social norm, whatever that you're breaking or violating by the behavior that you did, um they glaze because I'm trying to like give perspective, give all the things from another person. And they're waiting from another person. But they're not interested. They're not interested in all that. They're waiting for their turn to say, well, yeah, but this person was being a bitch. Like, right. Well, this is why we shouldn't call adults bitches, because it tends to get us in trouble.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:23

You know what I noticed about almost all of these topics that we've covered in a lot of anyway, is accountability is the core of damn near all of it. It all that's where the start of it is. So owning that, okay, we talked to Christy about it, we talked to Guff about it, you know, um, previous guests, you know, that accountability is so often the core of healing and understanding. It's like just like you're talking with your kids, it's like when you're talking about, you know, you're trying to explain the other person's perspective, it's like check out. But then when they get the opportunity, it's like, well, this no, this person was the problem. Right. It's like it all starts with taking accountability for your part in something. Right. And then, you know, you can build from that. It's like, yeah, I'll take accountability for this, but you can also hold somebody else accountable even if they won't do it. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:12

It's very difficult to hold someone accountable for something if you won't hold yourself accountable for things. Right. It's very hard to be in a position to say that. Right. So again, I've had situations where I've had to say things to kids. I've, you know, maybe raised my voice to a point where I didn't like I didn't myself like it because I was, I was frustrated. I was in my feelings at that point in time. Right. I didn't have the professional distance. You know, we all have shitty days. Sure. And there's times where somebody comes in and says or does something that just hits me wrong. And I'll be a little bit more forceful or a little bit more direct in my tone. Yeah. Generally, because I've spent a lot of my life being self or trying to be as self-aware as I possibly can.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:59

And trying to understand, you know, and look out for everybody else. It's very much something I struggle with a lot too. I'm the person who's walking through the grocery store with my kids going, okay, watch out. You know, not because I think they're going to do anything wrong, because I don't want someone else to be inconvenienced by me or by something else, then I'm so much aware of that. And then hitting the wall that is that's not societally common. Like that's not relevant.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:30

No, it's not relevant. Well, and also is it is it kind of fair to the kids, too, to me that well, and I'll myself here too, because you know, my son's just now a year and a half old, and I kind of lean towards the more okay, stay in this area.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:45

Right here. My wife would lean more towards just just explore. Now I think she goes too far with it. Yeah. It's been a point of contention between us. Yeah. But I also know if she wasn't in the picture, my dad was the same way. It was very much, no, this is this is your spot. You touch this only. So she does offset that, which is good because and I don't know if it comes down to people pleasing all the time. I think some of it's control. Probably. And it comes out of safety too, because I see him go in certain areas. I'm like, he has no business being there. But it also comes down to a bit of control. And I think a lot of things play into that. And what what do we all want that we just don't have? It's it's control. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I was kind of thinking about this the other the other day is that what's one thing in life we all have control over? Do you can you think of what that would be? And that's my perspective.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:41

So you might be able to my first thought is bladder, but that's also not true.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:44

What I was gonna say is, you know, we really we have control over ourselves, but like if we're talking life situations, right? We can set all of the blocks to build to this thing we think's gonna happen. Yep. You know, it's like, oh, I put in my dues here, so I'm gonna get the payoff. Not true a lot of times. Not at all. This is where it gets dark, right? That's where I go. Really, the one thing we have control over is our taking our own lives. Absolutely. Yeah. Because we can do that. So kind of what I was thinking is like, God damn, the the of existence itself is what we can actually kind of control.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:19

You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:20

That is it's a it's a dark, but it's a very true thought. And, you know, I feel like in a lot of cases, suicide is looked at as, you know, either the easy way out or you're I just lost the thought. Yeah, you're a coward or it's the selfish. That's what I was thinking. It's a selfish choice. But then if you look in to bring it back to the original context and the original topic, if you're a person who's dealt with mental health issues, if you've dealt with life being absolutely soul crushing and sucking, not even necessarily day in and day out of the way. Yeah, just situation, environment, life, life, like people are assholes. Family is. I have no money, I have nothing, I you know, don't know where I'm gonna get something to eat the next day. You know, whatever your circumstances are, people have their lines.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:18

And if you get to a point, or if a kid gets to a point, especially kids if we're going back to bullying, that's one of the things that there are studies out there that show kids that are bullied. I'm not gonna even quote a statistic because I don't have it in front of me right now, but it's significantly more likely to commit suicide. What's the point? Oh, yeah. This sucks. I don't want this saying where's the relief coming?

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:44

Where's the relief coming? You you put a kid in school until they're 18 or you know, a long time. Right. And you tell them, yeah, you're you have another seven years of this of misery.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:56

And and they see their day, they see their day to day. Right. They don't have the the years of experience to be like, oh, life does get better. Life changes, right? Circumstances change. I'm not stuck here. Right. They just see that. And it's duck in them as there's only reality. There's no light, there is only tunnel.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:13

Right. I've had kids that I've worked with in the past because one of the things that we are taught as professionals to do in those situations is to depersonalize it. You're not the only one going through this. Everybody else is also going through this. So you're trying to get the person to understand if I am not the only one going through this, then other people have done okay and I can make it through too. That's the goal. Right. That's why we're taught to do that. Yeah. I've had kids point blank tell me, please don't do that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:47

Because it diminishes my experience. Yeah, exactly. It diminishes my experience. Yep. Telling me that you're not the only one going through this, especially depending on what I tell kids all the time. It's not always what you say, it's how you say it. And I've heard people go, I've heard professionals, you know, who are like televising things or they're going like talk show hosts or whatever, and they're doing the whole, well, come on now, you're not the only one who goes through this. Fuck you. And your podcast. Exactly. Well, no, but that's the thing. It's like, fuck me and this podcast. No, but it's like saying there is a lot to be said for community. There's a lot to be said for having a group of people that support each other. I think that's one of the awesome things that exist in social media. This, this, yeah, struggle bus, this podcast, other things that I've seen like the number of times, and it's probably because we all know the algorithm exists. It doesn't. And if I talk about nobody apparently understanding, if I talk about being a therapist, I'm gonna get shit that is therapy on my, you know, on my for you page or whatever. Like, but to be fair, there are a lot of good things out there as far as like for ADHD or for depression or for anxiety. Like they're suicide prevention. Yeah, suicide prevention. There's a lot of that stuff. And so there are a lot of tools in TikTok, in Instagram, in Facebook, in YouTube, whatever. How do you find them in the in the muck? Exactly. You have to wade through the bullshit.