Safer Schools, Empathy & Culture Change | Mike & Jeff, Pt. 2

In this episode, our hosts dive deeper with Mike and Jeff—longtime guests and mental health advocates—to explore critical themes of empathy, respect, and culture change in schools and communities. We address how pressures from standardized testing, social media, and evolving societal values impact emotional learning and how these challenges require shifts in school culture and community support.

Mike and Jeff share practical strategies for embedding empathy in everyday school interactions, resetting communication norms to foster respect, and using simple behavioral scripts that promote dignity both online and offline. The discussion also includes the realities families face, such as financial strain and support networks, and highlights the importance of building student resilience and coping skills for sustained mental health.

If you're invested in transforming school culture, creating safer educational communities, and empowering students to navigate conflict respectfully, this episode offers actionable insights. For a comprehensive approach, listen to Part 1 on cyberbullying, accountability, and the school-to-prison pipeline as well.

If you’re ready to turn empathy into action, come workshop it with Mike, Jeff, and your hosts on our Discord, "The Struggle Bus." Post one respect-building micro-habit you’ll try this week (classroom, home, or online)—we’ll refine it, check in mid-week, and keep you accountable—and encouraged! (link below)

Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.

Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.

We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.

New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.

Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA

All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI

Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:22

So we were talking about accountability, right? Yeah. And and you brought up the idea of, oh, well, you're not the only one going through it. Like that's a total like Yeah, you don't everyone's doing this. So, you know, take accountability for your own pieces.

SPEAKER_02: 0:39

There's a piece that also is like too, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 0:40

Where where do you feel like schools? Because we also mentioned earlier that if it happens off of school grounds, okay, but the situation started on school grounds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 0:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 0:54

Where I don't know that we're gonna come up with answers necessarily, but if I feel like I know where you're going.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00

Well, yeah, then just get me there because I'm like, so at what point in time do schools have a responsibility to intervene?

SPEAKER_04: 1:08

We put the accountability on the supposed protectors of the educators, protectors of these kids. How do we make it better for the kids? Because this is the thing. My my my son is 17. He's kind of moved through all of that, and I've seen the situation get worse around him. And luckily, you know, he's pretty resilient and has kind of moved beyond a lot of that. Your kid, on the other hand, Nick, at you know, at the very in the right amounts to actually have a positive effect, to educate not only the kid, but the therapists, the teachers, the educators, administrators, and in the home to create that environment, how societally do we get the synergy of it? Yeah, how do we get that message out and where does the accountability lie so we can push it forward? Because ultimately, about this, this whole thing for the podcast is about making communities better. Absolutely. Making things better for the human element.

SPEAKER_02: 2:24

I think it's gonna take a group of people to change the dominant thought process of humans. It's gonna take incremental change, and it's gonna take people being willing to go. It's okay to fuck up. It's okay to mess up, and it's okay to say, okay, yes, I have responsibility in this. The dominant thought process for everyone that I've met in most cases is push the responsibility as far away from me as possible. So that's beyond even education. That goes beyond even education, but it's definitely present in education. For sure. And so I've met, we're talking about the forest. I've met trees, I've met individuals who, whether it be they be principals, they be vice principals, they be teachers, they be therapists, they be whatever role that they are in in a child's life, who've been brave enough to step up and go, either this is something that I'm responsible for, this is something that I did that either caused more of a difficulty and I need to change it and do something different, or this is something that I personally can and not change on because of the role that I'm in this person's life. I can through effort, and again, that's that piece that a lot of things fall on. If it makes me do more, I don't want to do it. Yeah. So we're also tired. Oh, yeah. Just the day life is exhausting for everybody. So, and the number of times I've had conversations with principals, with teachers, with paraprofessionals, with IAs, with whoever, to go, I just had one on Friday. I stepped in because there was a kid who uh was having an issue, and I was trying to like talk to him or you know, talk to the professional that was dealing with him at that point in time. And that situation got resolved. There was other things going on at the end of the day, and this paraprofessional goes looks at me and goes, This is cannot be my job. Like this, this, what is happening right now cannot be part of my job. And I was like, that's that other duties as a sign piece where that, you know, your job description is here, the other duties as a sign goes here. Right. Those 15 different pages of new things. Right. Because when you're looking at it from a standpoint of I'm in a role, and I get in trouble a lot of times for this because I step out of bounds to help in something that's not my job. I'm a lane changer too. So I get it. And I am working especially hard on that right now because I'm used to being the person who, if one of the kids that I'm assigned to, or that is in my purview and in my, you know, sphere of influence, if something goes wrong, it's my job to step in and do everything, whether it's behavior, whether it's mental health, whether it's discipline, which has been a spot where it's been hard for me to maintain good relationships with a lot of my kids because it gets blurred. Right. Because I'm the person who I've got your back, I'm on your side, then you have I'm helping you out. But when you mess up, then I'm also the person who's calling you out for it. Or at times with my more aggressive kids and other roles, I'm the person who's having to put you in a hold because you're hurting yourself or you're hurting somebody else. Right. That's why the that's why the doctors don't give the shot that the doctors you don't associate. But I don't have all the time the luxury of that. Right. And so then I'm constantly repairing situations with a person who's already on edge because of past relationships or lack thereof that they've had with people that care that leave, or people that care that do things that are hurting them at the same time. So I'm I'm date you with that. Yeah. And so it makes it hard. And I'm the same person, like we were talking about earlier. I I couldn't do it from a from your heart perspective. Like I was causing myself some health issues. I've had concussions, I've thankfully nothing broken, but I've been, you know, I've gotten all kinds of injuries, all kinds of stuff as a result. And now that I'm 45, it's harder. It's a lot harder to do it now. I'm not 20. I can't do holds as much, or I can't do, you know. I sat one of my jobs because it was a I was trying to enact change in a behavior. I sat across from a kid who smacked me in the face for two hours straight. Because this kid, again, talking about you do what works. This kid, every time I say I want something, I say I want it, I throw a fit, I hit people, I break things. I was like, today, that's not me. I'm not doing that with you today. I am the immovable. So I sat with him and tried my best to not respond and got smacked in the face for two hours. And I was in my 20s. I was like probably 26 at this point in time. Can't do that now. There's no way I would be able to do that now. But, you know, it's it's a culture shift. It's a I I'm pulling back from something that I've always done, but it's effort where effort needs to be placed. And so I think, you know, somebody stepping up and saying, this is something I can do, and you get pockets, you get little individual examples of this, but it's but as a general rule, as a general expectation, it's not there because you have school districts, you have administration, you have school boards, you have all of these things that say the big focus is testing. Right. The big focus is this. So all of this stuff, behavior, all of these things, if it's something we can't deal with, let's find a place to put them. So it's you're finding alternative schools. You're finding life skills classrooms for kids that don't want to do things. You're finding all of these things to hide and sweep the problem away rather than deal with it. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 8:36

Well, it's interesting is oddly enough, I ran into my old history teacher from eighth grade the other weekend, and you know, he's he's retired and all this stuff. And I know the school I went to, and a lot of my nieces and nephews are in, and Max will end up going to. You know, obviously a lot of these schools have down, gone downhill with their education and their systems and everything. And you know, he'd been there 35 years, so he'd seen the growth. He retired like five years ago, so or the decline, I mean. So what what I asked him is, you know, what changed? You know, I was really curious, and he talked about how the last several years he was there, and this goes right along with what you're saying, is that he was put in respon with responsibilities that he actually didn't have the power to enforce. Absolutely. So, you know, there would be kids who just didn't do their homework, didn't do all this stuff, you know, didn't contribute to their own education, and he did not have the power to enforce anything to get them to do that. So what would happen is, you know, the kid would fail and all this stuff. And as you mentioned, it all comes down to passing because if one child fails, they get a shit ton of funding cut. Everything comes down to that. So, you know, basically Especially since COVID. Yeah, and he would get held accountable for a student, you know, failing his class. So it got to a point where, you know, he he made the comment that you'd have to be pretty off your rocker to, and this is as a kid, to not be an A-B student these days. Yep. Because they make it so easy. I talked to my nephew, he's an incredibly bright kid. He's the same age as as Tony's son, and he's in AP classes, and they're not challenging to him. My son feels the same way. And it's just I remember I was in advanced classes when I was, and they were challenging me. They made you think the critical thinking is a lot of what's gone down. Yes, is what I understand. Yeah, I I agree with that. Is that a lot of the critical thinking in classrooms has just gone. Everything's just kind of laid out for you.

SPEAKER_02: 10:32

Well, because even in AP classes, because my son's in a lot of them as well. And, you know, he struggles with imposter syndrome as well. He's like, I don't know what I'm doing. I suck at this. And I'm like, dude, like you said, statistically, that's not correct. Like, you know, but I think in general education, we're teaching to I read, I learn. Right. For me, it was I step, you know. So we're teaching to a test. We're teaching so the kid is prepared to take a standardized test because the standardized test is by is what we judge success or failure of a school by. Right. A P classes are teaching to an AP test. Right. Because, you know, I took AP statistics when I was a senior. It was one of the first years I'm that freaking old. One of the first years they actually offered the AP test for the class. The class, I got an A. The test.

SPEAKER_03: 11:26

The test, I got a two. Yeah. And I'm like, what do you think? I mean, I have my own opinions about that, but what do you think? Where's the disconnect there?

SPEAKER_02: 11:34

Where's the I think obviously anything that we're doing, anything in life, we need to have a result. Like you need to have a result. You're you have to be moving forward towards something. Right. But I think whether it be mental health, whether it be education, whether it be work performance, whatever it is, we are so focused on what you are doing. Justify what you're doing, right? Justify the actions that you're taking and show me something that is beneficial to my bottom line, whether that be corporate profits, whether that be school performance, whether that be this, that we are taking away, like you said, the critical thinking piece of it. We're taking away the individuality from it. We are trying to make every single student into the same student. Right, exactly. Yeah. And the problem is that's not a thing. Like you, this kid over here is, you know, I spent a little time in education and in my college years. So this is a bodily kinesthetic learner. This is a visual learner. This is an auditory learner. This is a experiential learner. Right. So we have all of these different learning styles. We have all of these different communication and self-expression styles. And we're like, no, you have to do this. Right. You have to say it.

SPEAKER_03: 13:02

So you can't even provide children with the strengths that they have for their to achieve their potential. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 13:09

My one of my son's biggest frustrations a couple of months ago, and I think he's thankfully worked through it, but one of my son's biggest frustrations is he's currently valedictorian. Okay. Like at the school he goes to, and was absolutely terrified as an introvert to have to give a speech. Like, yeah, that's a thing that he was like, I can't get past this. I don't want to give a speech to the point where I'm like, dude, he's like, at this point in time, you know, the only thing I could do to not be is to tank my classes. And I'm like, no, like that's A, that's not you. Yeah. Like that's not your personality. Right. You want to be, you, you are, this is focused. And it's not externally, like, it's it's a complete internal motivation for this kid.

SPEAKER_05: 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 13:54

Like I did not crack the whip. No, I was 130th in my class. Yeah. It was not even close to being a valedictorian. Like, that is not a thing that I expect any of my kids to do. I expect you to do your best. Right. Do what is your best in everything. If you give your effort, that's all I care about. Right. Um, so I'm going like, hey, because he wants to go into computer science and marketing and that kind of stuff, like graphic design and those kinds of things. So I'm like, dude, do a video. Like, make a video, write your speech, say your speech over a video. Like, put graphics, put, you know, like I'm thinking, make it a whole product. Yeah, exactly. Make it a whole production. Talk to your professors, talk to your, you know, your teacher, your administrator, whoever is in responsible for this, and say, hey, can I make a video rather than have to stand up and do a speech? The thought of, well, that's not okay. That's not how it's done. That's not what's supposed to be done. Right. Like he couldn't even get past that. No, that's not how it's done. I have to give a speech. That's really sad.

SPEAKER_01: 14:57

And not that he thought that, but that's really sad that that's so ingrained.

SPEAKER_02: 15:02

Yeah. And it's, and I would, I would take, again, he's a very concrete thinker as well for what that, you know, what that implies. I get that. Um, you know, he and I love him to death. He's one of the he is truly the thing. Him and my other son are truly the thing that I want to be judged by when I grow wherever we go, because they are both better than I ever was as a student. And I want them to be better, and they have the potential to be better than I ever will as a person. But that I think going through years of, you know, we know why school was created. It's to teach people or get kids prepared to work. Not why there's an eight-year-old no, not bullying. No. Sorry, no, because that's why we still have bullies in corporate America. The weed at work, you know. Survival of the fittest. Exactly. It's actually, yeah. Like joking or not, like I actually serious.

SPEAKER_03: 16:02

It's social Darwinism. It is.

SPEAKER_02: 16:04

It's a function of social Darwinism. Yeah. Um, you know, but that's the we are preparing kids to be automatons to fit into the cog of a machine that we have created and continue to have problems.

SPEAKER_03: 16:20

Is continuing to malfunction more and more that the the cogs were attempting to create. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 16:26

If that's the case, all we need to do is just work harder. Because I know that's sarcasm. Yeah, no, absolutely. No, absolutely it's sarcasmic. But that but that's the that's the thing. We don't look for what do we change to make it work better. Right. We're obviously just not trying hard enough in the thing that we've always done. Right. We just need to work harder at it. And it eventually it's gonna work. Yes, it's Einstein. Right. If you do the same thing every time, expecting different results, that is insanity. It is. That's the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Fucking he knows. He's dead.

SPEAKER_01: 17:10

What does it matter? But to piggyback off of that, and going back to Tony's point about like what what will move that needle in a better direction? I don't have an answer. I'm not a guru. I'm not sitting at the top of a mountain that come to me, Tony, come, come let me impart wisdom. But have to be fair. Those things will be about to say, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 17:30

Absolutely. We'd have those to be fair with the beard and the and the shaved head.

SPEAKER_01: 17:36

But like to be serious about it, like it will take incremental change, like you said, but it will also take a resculpting of what we value as a society. Absolutely. I I I know like I'm not gonna get super political with it, so I'm just gonna keep it very vague and broad. Um the the people I interact with most often are very caring, generous, selfless people. Those are the people I surround myself with. Those are the people I call friends and family. Nick, I know I just met you, but if if you're friends with Tony, that was my same exact thought. I I lump you in automatically with that. Um and I think there's a misconception that if you're not in my immediate in-group, you don't care about me.

SPEAKER_04: 18:21

And and for some and to a certain, at least societally, you don't matter. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 18:27

Yeah. And and that is toxic to a healthy society because what is the point of us living together in these big groups? Right. What, 370 million of us in this country? What what is the point if your best interest is not also my best interest? What are we actually rallying around? Right. The goal was not the same for every person. Exactly. And and to a certain extent, that's fine. If you want to go to school, do your best, be a doctor, I don't care. That's fine. Right. If you want to go get your GED and then go work in a factory for the rest of your life, you can do that. That's fine. But like we we have to, as a society, remember it's either all of us or we're just going to continue to have problems like this. It's going to continue to erode. The machine will continue to eat us alive and deteriorate because the bottom line, like you guys were saying earlier, the bottom line is money. Wherever we go, it's money. So parents will blame schools. Schools will blame parents. Blame parents. Everybody will blame the government. The government will blame us. Like it's this self-perpetuating cycle, and people have to realize that the machine is running. We can just stop the machine for a little bit and figure out what the fuck we're doing.

SPEAKER_03: 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:46

And re reroute to a better direction. That's generally the best way to fix anything. Right. And people, and I'm speaking generally, and I could be very wrong. I think a lot of people are scared to do that because they don't know what that means. They don't know what that looks like.

SPEAKER_03: 20:01

There's change again.

SPEAKER_01: 20:02

Even if it's just a pause and not like shifting to anything dramatic. And nothing's critical change. And it's shift. No, we're not capable of that.

SPEAKER_03: 20:10

And that's not what I'm saying. Right. That's what I'm saying. No matter what, it's incremental.

SPEAKER_01: 20:13

Yeah, it's it's got to be this incremental shift because you have to slowly gather people that they don't need to agree with you, but they're They at least need to be able to sit down at the table with you and have a discussion.

SPEAKER_02: 20:25

And they have to see the validity in it.

SPEAKER_01: 20:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 20:28

Like they have to see the validity in what you're proposing. Yeah. Um, I think to take it back to bullying, one of the things I talk about with my kids all the time, you know, with that, hey, just ignore is what's always one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. And it to be fair, I still struggle with it, is you wouldn't care so much about what other people think of you if you knew how little they actually do. And not meaning that they think little of you, but you're not a most people are so focused on themselves. Right. Right. I could give two f about another person. Like that's our society right now. I am so focused on what I want that, you know, I don't care the effect that it has on you. I don't care that sometimes, and depending on the person you're talking to, that you're even here, that you even exist.

SPEAKER_03: 21:18

Right. It's so interesting you say that because well, I don't know the exact phrasing of this, but it's like assholes make it the farthest. Absolutely. The more of an asshole you are, the more successful you are. Here's the thing is I I'm even thinking about this myself, and I it's not something I could ever like identify with. But I'm thinking I'm thinking logically, though, it's like, fuck, I get why people are assholes to get by in this world right now. Yeah. You have to be selfish to a level if you want to get anywhere. It's still something to my core I can't get myself to do. But I'm thinking, gosh, there's opportunities I could have taken advantage or at least cost some ruckus to get something out of it. Tony knows probably the situation I'm referring to with School of Rock. I could have done some things there that would have caused some unrest, but I probably could have gotten some payout from that. But either way, it's like, I do actually understand why I wouldn't do it. I totally understand why people have to be fucking assholes to each other to get by. And that's just to get by.

SPEAKER_04: 22:21

I'm sitting over here thinking the whole time, you know, we're talking about how do we restructure a society, and yet the people that are sitting at the top of society they did that, would probably not pass some of your tests. No, have the diagnosis. Yeah, no. So so you have sociopaths and psychopaths that are running climbing everything and running everything, yet we're all down here talking about how we need, you know, I have to feel empathy for this other person. We're in this together, right?

SPEAKER_02: 22:51

I mean, we may or may not be run by a narcissist right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 22:57

And again, we're staying staying far from political, but I think objectively we could say that man's a narcissist working politically. I yeah, I think I think most people could probably admit he's a narcissist. Yeah, yeah. No. What's actually just not just a real quick blurb. I think that I don't remember who said this, but I heard is that in order to have any position of that kind of power or influence, you probably have to be a narcissist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 23:25

Yeah. Well, it's that whole extreme type A personality. Right. It's like I know what's best for for you to have it. I feel like a lot of us even believe it who have enough empathy to understand how our actions would hurt someone else. But to have a big enough global view, oh yeah. Right. You have to suck the empathy out of that situation. Absolutely. No. And it ends up turning itself upside down again. So how do you topple that?

SPEAKER_02: 23:55

Because I think there's some people hurting my brain, didn't it? I'm sorry. There there are absolutely some people who exist in this world who are completely either, I'm gonna say, oblivious to the fact that other people have goals or drive or exist. And there are some people who know they exist and act the way that they do despite the fact other people exist. Because again, this is kind of more the positive quote ish, or at least it's the understandable side of things to me. It's the one that I can accept because if you don't know, it's the ignorance. It's like I'm not gonna, I can't judge somebody for something they don't know. Like if you don't know something's wrong, I can't take it personally because I'm like, I've had moments where I'm ADHD and I'm just completely distracted walking through the grocery store or whatever, and I bump into somebody and I'm totally not doing it on purpose. I just am oblivious. Like I'm just I'm so in my own thoughts and my own feelings and stuff that I'm not paying attention and what's going on. And so in those moments when somebody like yells or cusses or whatever, it's hard, it's hard for me to go, I didn't do it on purpose. So, like that, again, if I'm ignorant to the fact I personally have started, have done things through my entire life to minimize the number of times those kind of situations happen. Because I don't want to be ignorant of other people. I don't want to be dismissive of the existence of other people. But I do know that there are people out there who are ignorant of drive, ignorant of the fact that if I make choice A versus choice B, I'm gonna do better, but other people are not. If you don't know that, I guess I can accept and understand. But again, as my role as a professional, especially if like it's an adult or a kid that I work with that's in this brain, you know, in this mindset, that's where I come in and go, okay, this is what that effect had on you as a person. You have to show you, I have to teach you empathy, which is something very hard to teach. Nearly impossible.

SPEAKER_04: 26:07

These are very beautiful words, but you fired. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:09

What's interesting though is that, you know, as a human being. You just changed a couple shades. As a human being, it's end of summer. Man, I understand. I look at other humans and I'm thinking, fuck, you should know how to be empathetic. Why do I have to teach you anything? Why do I have to show you as a human being how to air? And honestly, that even goes into personal relationships. It's like I'm in a relationship with somebody, and it's not necessarily my wife or whoever, but it's like, I have to explain to you why you should, why you should get that or why you should care about that, or why you should go out of your way to just do that. Like, shouldn't you just know that? You know, it's difficult, as especially I'm somebody who's incredibly empathetic. Probably do a fault at times, as I imagine times are. Absolutely. And I wonder if that comes with the field to a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 27:01

It attracts, it attracts it certainly attracts that type of person. It attracts people to do that. Yeah. Cause I I was talking to before we started that I didn't come to social work or the social services field as a first choice. Right. Um, because I didn't know, to be honest, that it existed. Right. Um, my dad comes out of my dad was a pastor, my mom was a teacher, and so life was just you help other people because from out of your abundance, whether that abundance be a lot or just, you know, whatever yours is, out of my abundance, I help other people. Right. Right. That's what it's that's what I'm here for. Because we are a society. We are people who are supposed to live and do this thing called life together. And so my question, and what draw me, drew me to education was, you know, or at least the work, the field of working with people in any way, shape, or form was I saw a lot of kids that I grew up with struggling. And the question I had was not, okay, it was why. Like, why are you having such a hard time? And I'm not. And again, that's not me trying to come from a place of humble brag or bragging, or it was we go back to the whole privilege, right? I'm very aware of my privilege. I'm very aware of the fact that I've gotten where I'm at. And again, you know, there are days where I'm like, where am I? Um, but there, but because life is hard wherever you're at, but there are days where I've gone, okay, so why is this happening to you and not to me? I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know where to approach that, but I had a music teacher, I had a choir teacher, um, when I was in second grade tell me you have a great voice. And that motivated me to do something with myself, right? Because I liked that. And so I said, Hey, I want to be that person for somebody else.

SPEAKER_05: 28:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 28:55

Yeah, yeah. Like that's what's drawn me here. And so that's why when I started out in school, I wanted to be a choir teacher. And then I got involved with like outreach theater and presentations and stuff to schools. And I was like, this is awesome. I could do this, you know, I could be a music teacher during the day, and I could work with kids in the, you know, we could do this whole thing after school. And I sat with my advisor on my sophomore year of college and he was like, that's not how this works. Like, if you're a band teacher, if you're a choir teacher, like you're working a 60-hour week job. Like just to do that. Right. So you're not so you don't have this. And so I had somebody sit me down and go, if you're interested in this, you should do social work. And my question at that point was like, what's social work? Oh, so you hadn't even Because I hadn't even like my ex my experience with counseling or with talking to people was my dad or my mom. Right. Listening and talking to people. Because my mom was that person when she was in a high school or in a middle school, she was that teacher that people would come to and talk to afterwards, that kind of thing. She taught at Ivy Tech for the longest time and worked with students who were struggling and that kind of stuff. Worked with, you know, people coming back after lots of years, not working, not not being in school or working with kids who are fresh out of high school, but were probably should have still been in high school because of academically where they were functioning. And so I was surrounded by people who helped people. Yeah. So that was just, you know, my worldview and my my common sense was you help people. That's just what you do. So I didn't, you know, I've only only really ever dealt with a school counselor to do like scholarships.

SPEAKER_03: 30:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 30:43

And at that point in time, they were giving me things that I'd already done. So I was like, whatever. But then I went and talked to a awesome woman, God rest her soul, named Lou Jean Walton, uh at Valparays University. She was a hard smoking, like at this point in time when I was in college, you could still smoke in buildings. Um, so walking into her office, it was smoke-covered, no nonsense black woman who grew up in East Chicago, was in the, you know, in you know, this the civil rights movement in Northwest Indiana. Wow. When they were protesting KKK rallies and stuff, like just and I'm like, this is a thing? Like, this is a job. I can do this. I just thought this was what you do. But then, you know, thankfully, through my undergraduate and my graduate education, the theoretical motivations and the things behind what we do and why they work, I was able to pick that piece up. And I'm very now passionate about the work that I do and the work that, you know, the the field that I'm in. But it was, it's something that most people still don't understand. Cause like you said, like, why do I have to tell you this? Right. Right. Like, why do I have to be the person that educates you? And then certain situations, like if it's a preference or it's something that like myself from a sensory perspective or my own experience that I need you to understand. This is why I'm responding and this is why I'm acting in a certain way. Like, yeah, I might have to educate you as a person I'm in a relationship with because it's something that is unique to me. Right. Right. But I believe that there are certain universal truths that everybody should understand. Like, I go back to Will Wheaton, don't be a dick. Like, that is the, you know, Wheaton's law, don't be a dick. That is the probably the number one thing that I live by. But with my kids, I don't obviously use the don't be a dick thing, especially except for some of my older kids sometimes. Sure. Because my rule is always if you need to say something, I'm not asking you to censor yourself. As long as that door's shut and you're not being disrespectful to anybody, I'll say it what you gotta say.

unknown: 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:58

Um my dad was that way too. But um, it's that piece of respect. Right. You know, and I think that's something that's very difficult in this day and age because the shift also, the culture shift has been why should I respect you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like if you haven't shown me respect, I used to why should I respect from respect? Yeah, it starts from a place of respect. Right. Now it now it has to be verified. Yeah. Cause let alone the person, you know, exactly. Let alone the way that I've seen kids that I work with interact with each other, but the way that I've seen them interact with the adults in their lives, granted, I understand a lot of it comes from a place of trauma. A lot of it comes from a place of I don't have a reason to trust you because you are the representation or you look like a face that treated me XYZ way in my history. So why should I respect you? Because I know, or I'm waiting for you to be a dick, right? Or for you to do something that is gonna make me upset. Right. So it's that I'm gonna do it to you before you can do it to me. But the way that I've seen kids talk to each other and to adults in their lives, whether it be mom, dad, teacher, principal, I'm like, I didn't get hit, but if I talk to a if I talk to an adult the way that I'm hearing kids talk to, I would be knocked the fuck out.

SPEAKER_03: 34:24

Uh yeah, I I think all four of us probably should could attend to that. Yeah. What what's interesting is that you you mentioned that you know you have to start out with respect, and and that can't probably should earn that to an extent.

SPEAKER_02: 34:39

So I think the piece that I try to ingrain is respect for basic human decency. Yeah. Like I need to treat you like a human. I should respect you because I want to be treated the same way. So again, cliche, golden rule treat others like you want to be treated. Yeah. So even if it's to that point of respect, right? That to me is the piece a lot of times that's missing. Sure, sure. And that's not just with kids, that's with adults as well. No, 100%. You know, like I need to respect you because I wouldn't want to be treated in the same way. Right. So it may not be, yes, I'm fighting against, especially with uh authority figures or police officers. I have had multiple conversations with kids, especially my middle schoolers that I worked with, that the second I start to try to even take up for a police officer or a teacher or a principal or somebody in authority with this person, they're like, fuck you, you know. Yeah, you I don't have I'm not listening to anything you're gonna say anymore. You're you're one of them because you're standing up for them. Exactly. And it's not so much that I'm going there, I'm I'm always trying to get the people I work with to see things from other people's perspective.

SPEAKER_03: 35:56

Oh, that's one of the most important things.

SPEAKER_02: 35:58

And it's the piece that I think is missing just from general human education right now. Like understanding other people's perspectives, trying to understand the effect that my choices have on someone else. Right. Not necessarily meaning that that's gonna change my choices, right? But underlying concept, underlying thought process for anything behavioral, anything mental health is every behavior. Everything's a behavior, first of all. Everything's a behavior. So you'll hear a lot of times, well, this kid's a behavior issue. What does that mean? They're standing, they're sitting, right? They're eating. What's the behavior that's the problem? Right. Because we've taken like a behavior as a bad thing. Me talking and waving my hands around in the air is a behavior. Right. Trying to ex, I'm trying to explain myself when I'm trying to talk, it's a behavior. That behavior has a consequence. Right. People think I'm crazy because I'm waving my hands around in the air. Right. Right. You know, but consequence has also taken on a connotation of it's always bad. Like if I hear, well, what's the concept? If I say, well, what's the consequence of that choice that you just made? I'm always, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 37:04

Well, I didn't get in trouble. Oh shit. What yeah, what bad's about? Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:08

Or they say, I didn't get in trouble, there was no consequence. I'm like, yeah, but there was. Yeah. So you were upset and you talked about that, right? And you said that to somebody. Right. The consequence was they understood you. Right. Like you got understanding through your behavior. Yeah. The antecedent, we talk antecedent behavior, consequence. The antecedent for that choice was you were upset about something. Right. That motivated you to do the behavior of talking. Right. That behavior of talking got you the positive consequence of understanding. Right. That's what you need to do.

SPEAKER_03: 37:44

A lot of it sounds like it comes down to changing the connotation of a lot of these words, right? Absolutely. Instead of everything having such a negative, you know, connotation, like consequence or behavior and things, you know, it's it comes down. It can be both. And it is both. And, you know, you kind of what I was going to say earlier came back to me is, you know, uh, I was kind of going back to that respect piece, you know, and I I want your opinion on when the hell did that change? Because, you know, I, you know, on fair enough. Computers, internet, and that's a big piece of it. Yeah. And what's interesting is like, you know, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04: 38:17

Well, I was just gonna part of what I was thinking as you guys were having the conversation is the ABC, right? Antecedent behavior. The consequence. What is the consequence to putting something nasty, threatening, snarky, whatever, negative online? Clout. Clicks, views, money. That's the big shift.

SPEAKER_03: 38:40

That's because what do we talk about? Remember when you and I were brainstorming ideas to get attention for this thing? Right. Controversy. Yeah. Rage bait. Rage bait. Here's then the idea is okay, we're gonna put a something out there that people are, well, it's controversial. It's controversial, but then they come to the full product. Yeah. Right. And they see Oh, but there is no full product. Just like the cancer episode we did. Yeah. We did that exact same thing. People thought that that was our that was our blow-up episode. That's what made this. It was because I said there were similarities between cancer and mental illness and the support system and all that stuff. It's not that I was saying one was worse. That's how people interpreted it. Well, then I said, Well, I posted a whole podcast episode where my co-host and I really dug into it.

SPEAKER_04: 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:25

And then people came out of it like that's what he was saying. Now I'm not gonna say that T Dog over here didn't have a lot of influence on clarifying that because who I am, but that's exactly it, is controversy. And I think that kind of ties in with what I was gonna say. So, you know, I see a lot of elderly friends of mine, like my grandmother, like she's not my grandmother, but you know, individual in my life that are in the 60s or older age, you know, constantly posting on Facebook this whole thing of what happened to kids, you know, they're cussing all the time and disrespecting their elders, and and it's accurate. But what you said, like your son, your older one especially, is that when he comes to you, he can kind of say it however he wants, but as long as that respect is established, yeah, that's okay. My dad was the same way. So how do we get that back? Where the freedom of expression's there while maintaining the respect, because that's where the disconnect is.

SPEAKER_01: 40:20

Yeah. So I agree.

SPEAKER_03: 40:22

I I'll Jump in a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 40:23

Um please do. The the so I I work in tech. I am not a tech person. I don't have the credentials. I don't have the education background. Um I have a lot of personal experience with it. So I can speak to Tony, you're not wrong. Computers are an issue, but it's not the computer is the issue. It is how we use it.

SPEAKER_04: 40:53

It's like the gun thing.

SPEAKER_01: 40:54

Yeah, exactly. And and how it has been accepted to be used. A lot of if we want to tie it into bullying and kids and all that stuff, we can for sure. Um, but it it goes so much broader than that. People need to remember that the phone in your pocket is not a phone and it hasn't been for the better part of two decades. Yep. Yeah. It is a computer. I forget, I think the first iPhone had more computing power than the entire US Air Force in like the 80s or something. One iPhone. Uh-huh. People people need to remember how powerful technology is and how little education there is surrounding it. Right.

SPEAKER_04: 41:35

How far-reaching it.

SPEAKER_01: 41:36

It's not even, I'm not even talking about like acceptable use cases of technology, simply how it functions. It has become the scary magic box that people don't know what's inside. That listens to you. Yeah. So, like stuff like that. Can you tell me how it listens to me? No. No. I can't tell you how it, yeah, how it does that stuff. If it does that stuff. So these conversations sprout up where people just start saying things about what your phone does, what the algorithm is and what it does. I'm not going to say, like, go to this website and you'll learn everything you need to know about the cloud and how algorithms work and whatever. What I am saying is what I push for people to try and do is try to be involved. Yeah. Try to at least get a base understanding of what is going on with this stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 42:24

Stop pontificating about it.

SPEAKER_01: 42:26

Stop pontificating because that just spreads misinformation. And that just lets the people who do know how it works, who do want to abuse it, it gives them greater footholds to do so.

SPEAKER_02: 42:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 42:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 42:39

It's the new satanic panic. Exactly. Technology, the new satanic panic. And I I was going to push. I was going to go and say, I think it changed when media in general took the stance of if it bleeds, it leads. Anytime we were, you know, they're presenting something that's a news article. Granted, there's a lot of shit that happens in the world today that sucks. Right. There's a lot of things that are terrifying. There's a lot of things that are terrible. There are a lot of tragedies and horrible things that happen every day that we don't know about. And ones that we do know about. Plenty that we know about. Right. But the stuff that doesn't get said or shared or talked about is the positive things.

unknown: 43:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:23

Because nobody wants to listen to it. You know, it's in if you boil it down to human behavior, if you tell me 15 good things about myself, you're going to listen to it. And then you tell me one bad thing, that's the thing I'm going to listen to. Right. That's the thing that's going to play in my head for the next 20 years. Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 43:43

Well. Yeah. And what I was going to say earlier, and I'm glad you brought that up, is, you know, we're talking about how the imposter syndrome side of things. And, you know, in our own heads, I think all at least the three of us, I don't I've got to do that. Oh no, I figured I don't want to put any words in your mouth. But it's just, you know, we can't expect others to change that perspective for us. It's like, you can tell me all day long I'm a great drummer, I'm a great father, I'm a great husband. You actually can't convince me of that. That is work we have to do internally. Because I've told Tony up and down, you're this phenomenal drummer and you're world class. And objectively, you are you are. And I think objectively, you probably even know that objectively, because I can objectively look and say, I'm not a bad drummer. I'm a pretty good dad. I'm a pretty good husband. But yet that isn't tied directly to my emotions about it. We always downplay it. We always minimize our abilities.

SPEAKER_02: 44:40

Right. Always.

SPEAKER_01: 44:41

We're too close to them. We we we're the ones that we're worst critic, like you said. We see our effort and we see where we failed. We see what we could have done right. And other people, they just they most of the time they just see the results.

SPEAKER_02: 44:54

And the worst thing I think is you see other people doing it better. You see other people being more successful. Thief is the we're always comparing ourselves to especially now in the world of technology. Well, it's just so you know. Yeah, exactly. And it's the period. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the piece that is missed 99% of the time that this is a presentation. This is a scripted interaction that we are filming. Even the ones are like, well, we just film all the time, we just do no, no, no, you don't.

SPEAKER_01: 45:28

No, you don't. You you cannot prove to me that you didn't do 10 takes and you just that's the one that looked the most nonchalant. The only way to not prove that to me.

SPEAKER_02: 45:35

The only way for anybody to do that is that you just have hidden cameras in your house that even you don't know about that are filming you 100% of the time.

SPEAKER_03: 45:43

Yeah. Well, it's because when you're on camera, no matter what, there's a moment of performance. Absolutely. You can't get away from that. No, you can't.

SPEAKER_01: 45:51

Even even if you're just starting out, like I'm sure you guys, when you were filming earlier episodes and you're smaller, you absolutely would have that. You're like, there's a chance people will see this. It doesn't matter if zero people watch. Right. The the next one, somebody might watch it. Right. There, there's always gonna be that element of performance. And it still is, by the way.

SPEAKER_03: 46:11

I mean, it's not like, you know, I I I say a lot, you know, I put anything out there, but you got when I think about it, it's like, well, that that little too, but I'm not gonna you know what I'm saying? So they're enough. They're always self-censoring in that.

SPEAKER_01: 46:23

Always. And the thing is, is like, that's not a bad thing. No. The the problem comes in on the receiving end when people look at that stuff and they're like, this is what it is. That was the piece that's gonna come down. That's the truth, that's real, that's who they really are. Right. They're that all the time. Right. No. Especially bringing it back to kids.

SPEAKER_02: 46:40

Exactly. Kids don't have the understanding, the wisdom, and the knowledge to know this is scripted, this is a presentation, this is an art form, this is a performance. Yep. Look at that and go, that's not my family, my family's wrong. That's not me. I'm wrong. And they aspire, they looked at that as an aspirational piece or something to look up to, whether it be somebody flexing money, whether it be, you know, this kid going on YouTube and filming all of their, you know, all of their antics and stuff and getting millions and millions of dollars for their family and that kind of stuff. I have kids that are trying to be influencers. Right. At like 10. Yeah. My son said he was gonna be a YouTuber. I'm like that is literally every kid I ever talked to, they were like, Well, I want to be this and a YouTuber. Right. Like that is a job that they want now.

SPEAKER_03: 47:37

I'm like 1% of the people that actually make it. Oh, I was gonna say is they think it's easy. It's the new rock star. Yeah. It is, but they think it's easy. They think this is a and I still have imposter syndrome about this fucking thing, but again, the evidence shows it's doing okay. But again, it's like it wasn't easy. And honestly, I don't know how much of it was luck or or what, but it's not just you putting a ton of videos out there and expecting that, oh, that's gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01: 48:07

Something's gonna go viral. Right. And I know we don't do like stats a lot. There was a study, and I need to find it. Uh, there was a study that it was, I think it was measuring intelligence and where you end up in life and how much of that is just purely random and luck-based. Okay. It doesn't matter how how much hard work you put in or how smart you are. Right. There is a large element almost measurable of luck. Yeah. Like it doesn't matter. Situation. Yeah, just where you end up. Like a lot of it environment. Yeah, you can put in the work. You can you can be smart for a lot of people, that ultimately will not get them exactly where they want to go. And maybe not even close.

SPEAKER_03: 48:46

Maybe not even close, maybe not even the same ballpark. And there's there's two pieces I want to add to that. So it's like, you know, you and I have talked how Virgil Donati is is the greatest drummer, the least I think so, and you one of them. But yet we've mentioned you especially have been like, there's probably many other Virgils out there. Oh, yeah. I mean, there probably are to that level of playing. I still, in my own fucking head, I'm like, there's there's no way. Because I haven't seen him. But the other thing I was gonna say is one of the most profound pieces I've just had in my own therapy, I go to therapy.

SPEAKER_05: 49:16

Me too.

SPEAKER_03: 49:17

Is he too? Yeah. So one of the best pieces of just reframing that my therapist gave me was hypothetical. So it's like, well, what if this happened? Like even thinking about the future too much is like, I'm trying to get on disability right now. I'm waiting for those benefits to roll and it's taking forever. So it's like, you know, I'm having conversations. I'm having conversations with my dad right now, who's supporting us pretty much financially, because he's got ability to do that. Now it's getting to the point where he's tapping some reserves, right? And he's he's having to think, and he's somebody who thinks way into the future. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, he he's brought up, you know, like, I mean, if this goes on too long, you might be moving under our route for a while, kind of thing. So that radical of change, which is unbelievably terrifying to me for multitude of reasons. Absolutely. By the way, when I was talking to my, you know, my therapist about this sort of thing, and we're not just talking about the future, but we're talking about, you know, what if this happened? What if I had to make this decision? It's like her thing was hypotheticals are some of the most damaging things. And it's because they don't actually matter at all. That's toxic thinking. I don't even hate that word, but it's it's negative thinking because it doesn't matter. Her illustration of that was let Nick in this dimension deal with that. You're not that Nick. You, this is where you're at. That was so profound to me because I spend so much time, and I still struggle with it, but I spent so much time thinking, God damn it, if I had gotten on disability five years ago before I had my son, how much easier would it be right now? Or, you know, if I hadn't pursued going to the GM level at school of rock and just stayed a drum instructor while I was happy, you know, where would I be? You know, it's like, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You're passing it. It can inform in the future. Yeah. That's the other thing. Like your choices can inform what you do later, but they don't matter after it happens because it's hypothetical. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02: 51:11

That was such a really eye-opening piece of well, because the what if processing and if I only and the this, you know, the the processing things that could have been or could have happened is a form of worrying. Right. It's worrying for the future in reverse. Yeah. If that makes sense. Really weird. Like you if I could have made this choice differently, I would have been here now. You know, real quick, go ahead and play that in a few other ways, just in case.

SPEAKER_03: 51:40

Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 51:40

That's me. Well, again, like everything I like to do. I usually have a movie quote or a quote of somebody that said it better than me.

SPEAKER_03: 51:49

Same. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 51:50

Um, so that's another thing that I was gonna do because I heard a long time ago, worrying is like a rocking chair. Gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. What movie's that? I have no idea. Oh, but I am and I don't know that one. It's because again, I'm sitting here in the moment thinking about things that could have happened, stewing, discriminating, and in my case, sometimes actually rocking because of stemming and that kind of stuff. Like yes, opposite. Um, but again, worrying, what ifing, and I say that to like my own kids, my biological kids, especially my oldest, because he has a lot of there's a lot of anxiety that runs in both sides of our family. So he has definitely some anxiety going on as well. And so, you know, worrying about this, making this choice. Like if I make this choice as a 17-year-old, it's gonna affect my life at 35. And I'm like, maybe. Maybe, maybe it will. But again, I look at my own thing. Like, I switched my career as a sophomore in college, you know, and I didn't go to a cheap college. I went to a private school. Thank you, mom and dad.

SPEAKER_03: 52:58

But you know, privilege again.

SPEAKER_02: 53:00

Exactly. I had the opportunity to do it. Right. Um, and I had the opportunity to change my mind. Yeah, and I changed my mind from something that was gonna pay me not well to something that was gonna pay me even less. Right. You know, and I have the what if, like, what if I have a head for business, I have a head for this, I have a head for this. I'm a smart dude. I could have done this, I could have been making so much more money. I see my wife is a medical assistant, so she works in a doctor's office. She, it's another female-dominated field a lot of times. Yeah. So she has friends whose parents are like finance, whose husbands are like finance bros and like tech people and big money stuff. And I look at the fact that if God love her, if she did not have an income coming in, I would love to be the only person that has to work. Because she's always like, well, her from her friends, and it she's not saying in an aspirational way. No, I know she's saying it in a in a I don't get it. This is not my life. Like the I it's it's almost like an incredulity of how she feels and how she's doing this. Like this person has the audacity to feel like they could just quit tomorrow. So they don't have to act like they need this job. Right. Um, whereas she's going in and working her tail off and dealing with all the crap she can get thrown at her every day. God love her. Um, but if she didn't have an income coming in, like most people say most Americans are three paychecks away from losing their house or losing their house. We're lucky if it's maybe two, to be perfectly honest. And that's hers and mine. Like if she loses a P loses a paycheck and I lose a paycheck, we're at least calling people, going, hey, what can I do? What kind of what loan can I do? What you know, what time frame can you give me a break? Can you bump stuff back? Our early marriage, there was a lot of that. And a lot of it, you know, again, privilege. My parents helped us out financially. Um, and I had still had a job when they were helping us out financially, right? Let alone the times that I lost jobs.

SPEAKER_03: 55:02

Yeah. Well, that was a lot of what you said. They're really home to me because it does come down to privilege again, and but it's one of those hypotheticals too. But it's like, you know, if I didn't have my dad's reserves, and we're generational wealth. Yeah. That's full family. We're generational. So he didn't make all that. It was my grandparents and great-grandparents. But they passed really young, so he got access to it pretty early. Um, what I was gonna say is, you know, I have no idea where we would be if I had to get on disability right now and I didn't have his resources to rely on. It's one of those things where, you know, you weigh your negatives with your positives. I can say that it's a nightmare not working right now. And real quick, I'll add this blurb you know why I'm looking at the cameras. I'll add this blurb for you guys is that I don't and counter me if you disagree, but I think if you're mentally ill, I almost attribute this to damn near anybody, and you're not incapacitated, you should work. I would agree.

SPEAKER_02: 56:05

I think that working, doing something productive, being productive is a human quality. It is absolutely healthy. The people who don't have something motivating them in life. Right. It cut to me, it breaks down to a motivation. If I'm not motivated to do anything, then I'm sitting on my couch doing nothing. And that's not much of a life. It's not, you know, it's cool for a while. Like I'm not gonna tell you if I take a if I take a weekend off. Like I sat all day yesterday and played video games. Yeah. Um, with my wife sitting next to me reading a book. Yeah. You know, it's I like days like that. I like days like that. You know, and was there other things I should have been doing? Absolutely. But that's fine for a while. But I can tell you when I haven't, when I've been out of work, been between work, and I've even been hustling to try to get jobs, like that sitting at home and doing nothing and watching my wife go out and still be productive, watching my kids go to school as a man, especially, thank you, makes me feel like a worthless piece of shit. Piece of human being. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 57:08

100%. Absolutely. Um and I I'm in a perpetual state of that right now. You know, I know that the that the result of getting these benefits is going to be what's going to be best for all of us, but in the thick of it, you know, not working, and you know, contributing around the house and and and things like that and handling most of the out the external, you know, tasks and things has its benefit, but there's some mindfuckery to if you're not making money for it.

SPEAKER_05: 57:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 57:37

Well, and that's the other thing. Because then it takes the worth away legitimately from it. You're like, I'm doing all these things and I know it's contributing to the betterment of our lives right now. And it's like, are you building something from the future? Not actually making any money, so why does it matter?

SPEAKER_02: 57:51

Yeah. Because we tie everything to money. Everything's the money. I and with that being said, going back to society, going back to gov, you know, what we support, what we don't support, what we promote, what we don't promote, the supports that exist, whether it be food banks, whether it be food stamps, EBT, whether it be SNAP, whether it be CCDF for childcare, whether it be disability, whether it be insurance, any of that stuff is tied directly to effort. There are a work either you have to jump through so many hoops, or you have to still even unemployment insurance. If you get laid off from your job, you got to go to work one and you have to show I've applied for three jobs this week. If you don't apply for three jobs this week, you get the haircut. I had to do that for three months and didn't even get the benefits. Like because work one, you know, I was in conversation or processing with a pro former employer, and because I was terminated for cause, I didn't qualify. Right. You know, because there's a you know, gotta love Indiana's at will work state. Well, the last ones, I believe, right?

SPEAKER_03: 59:05

There's only we're one of the last ones of a lot of things. We were the weren't we literally the last state to allow alcohol sales on Sunday? Is that right?

SPEAKER_02: 59:13

That's one definitely one of them. Unless you play very close to last, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, there's there's lots of other states that are more conservative. I don't know. Let's talk about that for a while. Yeah, it's kidding. Why do we stay? We will lose listeners. I was about to say, yeah, we will. We will. Yeah. Um, because again, I love this country. I love the state I live in, I love the people I'm around, I love it for those reasons. But again, there are lots of things that I would change exactly. But that piece of you have to produce to get something from me. Like this thing that I am, I pay into Social Security, I pay into taxes that, you know, fund all of the all of the programs that everybody loves to cut first that are those safety nets that happen that, you know, I've been in positions in my current job that I met a lot of because I started my job, my current job during COVID. And so everything was shut down. I was in my school for a week before we got locked down. So I didn't even had a chance to meet most of the kids that I worked with at that point in time. So a lot of my introduction to my families was going to gleaners. Thank you, gleaners, you're awesome, and picking up food for families because. Because they weren't either they were essential workers and they couldn't have time to go to a grocery store and didn't have anybody to do it. So they were food insecure.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:31

We have a lot of places in this city that are food insecure. And hunger with kids is a major motivator to whether they are successful or not successful. And so one of the introductions I had for a lot of my kids was, and my families especially, was I'm picking up a box of food with my pit bull in the back of my car and dropping it off to kids, you know, dropping it off to families. And that's how they knew me. I've been in positions in the last five years of this job where I was going to a food bank for someone, knowing full well, hey, what do they have this week? That I might need to be back for myself next week. Wow. Because things are tough. Things are tight. Yeah. You know, whether it be through choices that I made or things that happened to me. Or just finance or just life in general. In general, it's established for us, you know, out of our control. So the hustle is so ingrained and so built into our culture that we tie it to everything. Universal basic basic income has been a thing that's been discussed for a long time. I'm personally for it. Having something where you have a I'm getting basic, we go back to Maslow. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That's something that is an educational piece and it's also a psychology piece, a social work piece. It's the understanding that we have a very level of things that we need. Sex is definitely sex is definitely there. It is need. But here's the thing if you're hungry, you can't really don't have the energy to have sex. So it's those steps. I do, but well, that's that's it's satiated is hunger. It's fair. That's fair. But you can't move up the ladder or the pyramid as it is towards self-enlightenment or towards self-actualization until you meet everything else. Right. And so if I'm coming into a school building and I have a kid who didn't get to eat dinner last night, didn't get to eat breakfast this morning because they're running late, I keep food in my office that I really can't afford to keep doing all the time most weeks. Right. But I keep, you know, and it's nothing it's nothing huge. It's granola bars and fruit snacks because it's stuff I know kids will eat. You know, I'm not gonna buy sandwich meat and that kind of stuff, or you know, yogurt or oatmeal. Oh, yeah, stuff that would be helpful, you know, stuff that would be more healthy and more helpful for the kid. But you know, it's the stuff eating they'll eat because I'm like, if you're sitting here and you walk in and you're angry because you're hungry, how am I gonna send you to a classroom where a teacher's going to get on your case, expect you to do something you already don't want to do, but you're hungry. So your reaction is going to be less positive than if you have something.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:14

You know, people joke about being angry. No, it's a real fucking thing.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:18

It sounds like a legitimate thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:20

No, like it's so legitimate, like like at the ABA center, that's something that we were taught to consider. I remember that. Like when a kid comes in and they're exhibiting and you're they're exhibiting behaviors. Sorry, they're exhibiting maladaptive behaviors. Understandable. Yeah, you look at the motivation. Are they trying to avoid something? Or are they simply just not getting a biological need met? Yep. Are they tired? Are they hungry? Are they constipated? Like they have bathroom issues. Like, is it any of these things?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:50

And especially if you're dealing with kids who can't communicate that in the moment, whether it's because they physically can't communicate it or emotionally because of where they're at, can't communicate it effectively. You have to do a detective work at that point in time. Yeah. So you go, okay, do you want to take a nap? Do you need to go to the bathroom? Do you need something to eat? Let's walk down to the cafe, or let me get the extra lunch stuff that I keep with me. I was packing extra lunch stuff for a long time. The number of times I've given kids sandwiches out of my lunch or given kids, you know, apples or banana or whatever I've got, whatever you'll eat out of my lunch is over 20 years.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:25

Yeah. But you can even extrapolate that out into society. You can go down the street and somebody flips you off and you don't, you might not know why. Maybe, maybe you cut them off and you didn't realize or so. Whatever it is, like we go around and we don't look at each other with what's going on with Mike? Why is he so pissed off today? Like he's an asshole. Right. You we just we just jump to these conclusions where like you don't understand. Mike just had a really rough phone call on the way into work and he just had to talk to his wife because now they have to go to the loan uh to the bank to get a loan at the end of his day. So, like, how do you how do you teach people empathy? You know, you you really can't. No. You can in some ways, and in other ways, no, you're right. It's a very difficult thing, but like it it's that shift of people need to start looking outward and trying to understand why are things so shitty because everybody's having a really rough go. And survival mode makes you selfish. Oh, 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_04: 1:05:30

So and and loud. And loud. Because if you think about who you pay attention to online, it's the loudest voice, the extremist views.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:40

Yeah. And that's exactly what I've said numerous times. We were even kind of talking about is most people are very, as we've said, you know, generous, kind, giving people. I think. At least people I try to surround myself with.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:52

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:52

And honestly, there's circles I don't really associate with much that I observe that being a common thing. Right. Are there tiers of it? Sure. Yeah. But like most people are decent people and try to be. Absolutely. And certain situations we're presented with, sometimes we just can't be that person for our own survival. But what I was gonna say is, you know, again, it comes down to like the extreme voices out there. But when you knock those guys out, I'm not saying curtain. When you get those guys, it's gonna be a thing. When you eliminate the outliers. When you do that, and I'm just saying let's cancel those voices out, you're gonna find that most people actually here in the middle, decent people, right? Right because it doesn't serve you in life not to be. It doesn't. And the next part I want to get into is the community aspect. Community actually takes work. Absolutely. And that's the problem is I've noticed within my own friend group, you're you're not withstanding in guffs, certainly, or withstanding, how may I said that wrong? You're not included in that. Is you're up the trying to be clear. You're voted off. You're in the group. Actually, you're in the group. I know. But there there's a lot, there's certain friends in my life who listen to this, so I haven't had the heart to tell you in person, but I've reached out kind of obsessively to make sure they're okay. I either get ghosted, I don't get responses. And what's interesting is I know what's going on with them. I a couple of them, they're really going through a hard time. And I'm just like offering, like, I'm here. Like, I'm here for you. And they don't, they don't give it back. And I'm in my own head at this point kind of like, why am I putting this energy? And it's a lot of energy, whether it's not like I'm reaching out every five seconds, but just emotional thought process, you know, just thinking about them a lot. Yeah. And it's like sometimes I think I'm neglecting what I need a little bit or even what my partner and son needs on occasion, not drastically, but you know, your mind's different places, so you're not present. Yeah. And just comes down to why am I putting energy into this when I know I feel like objectively they probably could use the support.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:00

That's like it's there in abundance. But it's like I'm willing to put the work in to you. Why are you not leaning on me? Because I know they're not leaning on anybody else. But in their perspective, is it work to have to lean on somebody? And I'm saying in general too, is it work for people to have to because honestly, I'm also to the point where I'm like, okay, fuck it. Like I put so much, so many feelers out there. I'm selfish. Exactly. You have to become selfish. And it also comes to the point where not only do I say, fuck you guys for a bit, I'm done trying to help you because you just don't seem to want it, even though I feel like I need it. Yeah. But beyond that, it's like, not only do I say fuck you, it's like, if I need you, I don't think I'm gonna reach out to you now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:47

And I think I'm gonna say something. I think I think I feel like you're gonna be. I need it. If I needed it, I feel like I would. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Because that doesn't feel like community to me. No. It's not, it's not. That's not reciprocity.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:04

That's not so we've been talking about it in a a variety of ways. To me, I view that as an extension of the hyper-individualistic shift that we have of if I show you that I need help, if I lean on you, then you're gonna have to expect that later. I'm weak. What's that? I'm not man enough, I'm not a good provider, I'm I can't do it. I can't let you see that. And that that might not be true for everybody. It's a multitude of things, though, right? It's not only that, it could be as simple as you overestimate your place in their life. That's very I know that's probably accurate. Um, but it a lot of people are also scared to be vulnerable, not only with outside people on the outside, um, with themselves. Sure. It it's uncomfortable, it's painful to sit with that. Like, hey, I had to call Mike and get money. Like, that's oh, that's so hard to do. Yeah, like that's that's borderline painful for a lot of people. And uh, I forget who it was. I want a quote now, too. I don't remember who said it, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, so I'll just summarize it. Um you do a dishonor to people in your life, and I mean friends, loved ones, not just like a random coworker, random person at the grocery store. You do a dishonor and a disservice to that person if you do not let them sit in the mud in the muck with you. If you don't get in the shit with your friends, are they really your friends? I don't think so. I kind of agree with you. I don't think so. I don't either. When I look at my own life, the people I'm closest to are the people that know me and could hurt me because they know those deep things about me. They know where I'm weak, they know where I'm vulnerable, and they don't take advantage of that. Oh, that's they don't use me as a they don't use me as a rung in the ladder, they don't use me as somebody to forward whatever goal, plan, scheme they have, they use that to build me up. I like that community building, like that's the phrase, right? And you said it's work because it absolutely is work. It's absolute effort. If you don't invest, and I don't mean financially, if you don't invest time, energy, love, energy, yeah, thoughts any of that, even just thought into the people around you, you cannot expect it back. Then you are alone. And what what other option do you have than to be selfish? Well, if you can only look out for yourself at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:32

Perfect caveat, and it's something I've been really mulling over, is yeah, they say it's a you know I've talked about this, I think, is how they say it's a loneliness epidemic for men. And I think you could apply this to a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's the big thing. It's a loneliness epidemic for men. I think it's an isolation epidemic. It absolutely is.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:51

I absolutely think so. It absolutely is.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:57

To piggyback on what you were saying, the other piece that I was gonna add to that, I was having the same thoughts with you that I have to lean on somebody. It's a w it's a vulnerability, it's a weakness. The other piece of it is going back to that accountability piece. I have to that you failed. Recognize I have to accept this is a problem. I have to see it as a problem, and I have to accept it as a problem, but it's much easier to ignore it and not work on it. Yeah, because it's gonna take effort. So it's like, you know, discomfort, especially. I've been in my I've been in positions where I'm like, cool, another bill. We'll just hide that somewhere. We'll just put that somewhere. It doesn't make it go away. No, you know, but most people don't want to take the effort and don't want to do the effort to do handle the things and deal with the things. And I'm putting myself in this category too. Same here. That they don't want to deal with the things because it's hard. Right. It's gonna show shortcomings, it's gonna be vulnerable, it's gonna require assistance from other people. It's a it's the gamut of everything. Kind of everything.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:59

Yeah. With like therapy and the way it's going to do. And it's it's exactly on kind of some of this. It's about comfort rather than actually going through and understanding the why and the reasoning behind things. It's more about, well, what's make you comfortable? It's a band-aid fix. It's a band-aid fix. Instead of building capacity to handle difficulty. Right. A lot of us don't have capacity. That's what we all need to develop. And and that's where the challenge lies. So, my God, I think we've covered the universe. Pretty much. But thank you so much for for joining us. It's been a blast. My God, guys. Will you come back? Absolutely. I would love to come back. All right, guys. Well, uh, this is Bottom Hui, beat the mental health out of it. You got Nick, Tony, Jeff, and Mike here, and I'm sure they'll be back. And if they don't want to be, we're gonna have to get Carl to go kidnap them for us. So, anyway, thanks for joining us. Um, and stay tuned for more.