Forgiveness, Accountability & Boundaries | Coping Without Forgetting

Forgiveness isn’t “forgive and forget.” Real forgiveness doesn’t erase what happened — it helps you stop the past from controlling your present.

In this episode of Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”), Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) and co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”) get brutally honest about what forgiveness looks like when real harm has happened: not excusing it, not minimizing it, and not bypassing accountability — but learning how to cope without losing yourself.

Using personal stories — including suicide loss within a family and traumatic relationship experiences — we break down how forgiveness, accountability, boundaries, and atonement fit together. Because sometimes the missing piece isn’t your willingness to forgive. It’s whether the harm is actually owned, repaired, and changed. And when that piece never shows up, “forgive and forget” can turn into a trap that keeps you stuck, resentful, or retraumatized.

Content note: discussion of suicide loss and heavy trauma themes.

In this episode, we talk about:

Why “forgive and forget” is a myth (and what forgiveness actually is)

• Accountability vs. apology: what counts and what doesn’t
• Where atonement fits — and what real repair looks like
• Why boundaries aren’t cruelty — they’re self-respect
• How grief and trauma distort relationships over time
• The long shadow suicide can cast on a family
• Why forgiveness is personal, and not something you owe anyone on a timeline

If you’re stuck trying to forgive someone who won’t own what they did (or you’re trying to forgive without betraying yourself), join our Discord “The Struggle Bus” and drop the situation — we’ll help you sort accountability, atonement, and boundaries without gaslighting yourself. (link below)

Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.

Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.

We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.

New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.

Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA

All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI

Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:23

Here it is, Bottom Huey beat the mental health out of it. Seems like it's been a minute. It's been a minute since you and I have done one together.

SPEAKER_00: 0:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 0:31

We are past due. It's good to be back. Good to be back, just the two of us. Tonight's episode is Accountability, Forgiveness, and Atonement. Gonna get deep tonight. Gonna get deep in there. Real dirty. Alright. So I had the idea for this one. You did. We talked about it, and uh, think this man here has a few opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02

And they stink. And they stink most often. Most often, yes. Most often they do, yes. So why don't you start? Since you kind of you had the the genesis of this idea. Genesis.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15

Um yes. I am Marvel or sorry, Bottom Hui Jesus.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21

Anyway, okay, so you had the idea, forgiveness, and and you kind of outlined where this came from. Do you want to outline?

SPEAKER_01: 1:29

I would love to, because they're gonna need the outline pretty much. We had the conversation. Um this is your segue. My segue.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

So please segue, sir.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39

I I love seging.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01: 1:41

Pegging and segging in the way that we like. So you know, mentioned several times on on the show about my grandmother who committed suicide um when I was 16 in 2009. Yeah. Um, so I'm 33 now. Um, that's uh 14 years ago. I'm I'm not good with math. I'm drinking. Yeah. Not the math podcast. We certainly said that a lot. No. Anyway, uh many, many years ago at this point, and you've heard me on the show talk about how angry I am about it and how rightly so. You know, things things uh that's a very complicated um situation. And a lot of r um is it uh uh residual effects uh from that have continued to Well and and the short s for the people who haven't heard the story, the sh the Episode seven.

SPEAKER_00: 2:35

Yeah, the long short of it is that she knew that you were coming over, you and your mother were scheduled to come check on her. Yeah. And her words were uh I'll make sure to be ready for you. Which sounds so sinister. It it is in hindsight, yeah. Knowing what she had waiting for you.

SPEAKER_01: 2:54

Yeah, yeah. And to do that to your 16-year-old uh grandson, who frankly we were very close. Um it's a little fucked up, a little messed up. But let me let me tell you, so you know, a lot of sessions in therapy have been spent on uh forgiveness and the healing started through music. I recalled music we used to listen to together because we did a lot. One in particular, I didn't really understand the depth of what it could have meant to her. I am I said by Neil Diamond. You know that one? Not not very well. So I mean, I'm not gonna say I am I said I I am familiar with the song, but I have not so you know I'm deeply Neil uh Diamond is for an incredible um lyricist. Oh yeah, and you know, a lot of his uh famous songs are kind of masked by the you know the the gimmick or the hood, you know right. So right, but then you've got like Holly Holy and Love and the Rocks and I am I said and you know Hello again.

SPEAKER_00: 4:02

Hello to see. Actually, as a kid, I was a huge Neil Diamond fan because of that the remake of the jazz singer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:11

I mean they just recently did a musical of that. Oh, did they? Like uh he just wrote one, and it's it starts with him in therapy. Wait, and there's there's a isn't there a Hugh Jackman that he's impersonating him now too? I was so disappointed when I saw the preview for that. I was like, they're doing a biopic on, and it's like, damn it. They're doing a biopic on somebody's impersonator, yeah. It could be good, but anyway, the the new musical is is Neil, it starts off with him in therapy. Oh wow, and he's talking about his music and and his loneliness and and isolation. I mean, Neil, come on the fucking show before you die, you're like 8,000 years old. With with that song, you know, it's a lot about isolation and and um feeling alone, and and one line that resonates with me is I'm not one who likes to swear, but I've never liked the sound of being alone. And she was somebody who, you know, once my grandparents divorced, she never was um truly with anybody else. And she probably would have been a difficult person to um live with as a partner after that. Um just because it can be. And just be well, just because you know, she had she had established her own lifestyle and was a very independent person and all those things. But you know, I think I think we look back and and probably think that it would have been a good thing for her to have found somebody. But uh in the end, you know, it just came down to re revisiting her humanity. I didn't realize that was a big barrier to me. I could reflect and think about all the great times we had because there were a ton of them, um, and all the things she did for me and generous and kind and supportive and all those things. What have we talked about a lot on suicide on this show is that you know people do that, they leave nothing but devastation in their wake, and you know, they don't help anything. You know, they think what we said is you know, people in that state think they're the burden in life. They think people will be better off without them. Right. They think you're couldn't be further. And the way I've kind of um simplified that is you think you're the burden in life, but you're actually the burden in death. Um so but it is hard to get past that if you're living after that. For sure. Um so I it all came down to re-examining her humanity beyond that. Um, and it's really helped, and it's helped in other situations too for forgiveness. But that that's where this whole topic started. Yeah. And I know you had a different direction you wanted to go into, which is gonna spark a lot of different takes on this.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

To me, it's like, okay, most of us hear the old adage, you know, forgive them, otherwise you're carrying it around. Right. Right. So the analogy is that you are the warden at the prison you are holding them in. Right. You know, your hatred and your anger and all those things. But the problem with that is that you have to show up to the prison where they are every day to keep checking in on that. Right. So the prisoner is living your life, instead of living your forgiveness piece allows you not to have to go to the prison, or at least that's what we're told. Right. So, so my talking point on this one is if we're told to just let it go, is that really forgiveness? Because it's so rare that you're going to approach someone, right? They take accountability for it, right, and then they change what that behavior is to atone for the wrong. Right. So that you can then say, I forgive you. Right. Forgiveness should be this release, right? Yep. It should be releasing of the tension created by whatever event happened to cause this break.

SPEAKER_01: 8:09

And sometimes it's an occurrence that continues to happen. It's a hurt that is repeated.

SPEAKER_00: 8:15

Right. Yeah. And is it really forgiveness, or is it just letting it go? In other words, putting it in a canister and stick it in the back of the attic so you forgive and forget. If feel like you've been sold a lie, all of us, yeah, to accept that forgiveness is forgetting. It's not. Because I think it's two different things. Oh, I agree with you. And and the reason I say that, and you know this, uh-huh, because we just did an episode on borderline borderline personality disorder. And I was one of the lucky ones who got to marry one. And congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Uh it was yeah. There were some good times. Such a such a needle in a haystack lottery win there. Um well, the needles were actually poking me.

SPEAKER_01: 9:08

Yeah, and it was a whole haystack of needles, so um it was it was like acupuncture, but it it didn't help. It caused more pain.

SPEAKER_00: 9:17

Yeah, it was more like stabbing.

SPEAKER_01: 9:20

Um He was a horrible acupuncturist.

SPEAKER_00: 9:23

Oh fuck. Malpractice. Yeah, for sure. It hit every nerve. But that happened to me over a decade ago. And the um the actual harm was done as far back as let's say 2015 um or so, somewhere around in there. Um and and I thought, well, I will immerse myself and finding everything out about it and figuring out how I can get myself out of this. And I pulled myself out of this trench, and you know, then I was healed, right? And then we had this episode, and I was fine through the episode. Well, um, but woke up the next morning and really truly was struggling with a lot of it again, which really kind of brings that that issue to the forefront for me. It's like, was it actual forgiveness or was it just letting it go? And if and if we're going to call letting go forgiveness, how how do we deal with it when it rears its ugly head again? Because there's always going to be triggers.

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:36

Even though I spent a good six months to a year out in the garage punishing myself with weights. Right. But it was, you know, all these people talking about uh borderline and how deadly it can be to your nervous system. You know, you never, you never feel safe in a relationship, you never truly feel like you have that connection. It can, you know, put you on high alert for all sorts of nefarious activities that are actually part of making a real relationship happen. So it can it can mess you up pretty bad. Um but I don't I don't know that I can say I actually forgave her. I don't know if I can. Not without there being some sort of a conversation, and I know I'm never gonna get that. Well, and you've said you wouldn't want to see her face to face, too. No, seeing her face to face would be rough. Yeah. Because it would be such a mix like of hatred and like, oh, she's back, right? My body would remember the feelings, right? But my head would remember my head and my heart would remember the the drama, the yeah. Yeah. So I I don't know what that is. I don't know if that can be considered forgiving, forgiveness to let something go, you know, because if that's the case, if it's not the same, then I don't know that I've ever forgiven anyone who's hurt me to that level.

SPEAKER_01: 12:17

Well, see, that's what I was thinking about too, is because I don't think I don't think they are the same. I don't think they can be. To me, letting go means you don't acknowledge that it happened, and I don't think that's fair to you or the person that committed the transgression towards you. Yeah. Um, you know, uh one thing that the that came to my mind, you know, the the three keys to this, you know, forgiveness is accountability and then atonement for it. But the accountability part of it is um, you know, it is it's a wonderful thing to take accountability.

SPEAKER_02: 12:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 12:50

And, you know, if the person who you've wronged or continue to hurt, if they're going to forgive you, that person who's doing the wronging, I don't know, I'm probably phrasing things weird, but the per is going to have to uh take accountability for it first. Sure. So there has to be recognition that, oh, I caused a problem. I caused a problem, right? And that's the first step, I think, period. Right. The second step, I think, is the hardest for people to do, is well, accountability is pretty hard too. But that's a big step, and I think the one that's hard is the follow-through. Because, and this is something I struggle with a lot is accountability for a wrongdoing means shit. Right. Like, oh I'm sorry, and that's wonderful, but and accountability is wonderful, but if you don't follow through with stopping the action or putting genuine um effort into changing that action, your accountability means nothing to me. So then it comes down to okay, how do I move past this? If this is a recurring behavior, um, and this person doesn't adjust it or whatever, okay, how do I move past it then? Because I don't think I can forgive that because this behavior is going to continue to happen. Right. I'm going to continue to be hurt by this behavior. Yep. So what's the next step? Well, here's where I've kind of tried to take it is I have to accept that either this person cannot, is not capable of making that adjustment, or simply will not for whatever reason. Right. And I don't necessarily have to know the why not, the why or why not. It would help. Yeah. But it comes down to am I asking too much? Is this too much to ask? Is that something maybe I need to reassess? Um, or is it simply a shortcoming of that person? Yeah. Because nobody's perfect, myself included. Right. But if there's something that someone's a behavior that someone continues to do to you that they're aware of, they do take accountability for, but there's no follow-up, well, what what's my process then? Because they've they've done the hard stop there. They say, okay, I take accountability. Maybe they say they're going to adjust the behavior and don't, maybe they take accountability and say, hey, this is something I can't change. Well, then I have to do the work to be okay with that. Now what does that mean? Yeah, is being okay with something forgiveness, though. And that's what it that's what we're talking about here. Is I I don't know. Because to me, I don't know where the disconnect is there, because I can't put words to it as far as like why is forgiveness not just letting go? Why is forgiveness not forgetting? You know, why are those not um synonymous with each other to me? And I I can't label that. Okay. It just doesn't feel right to do that. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right to call them the same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 16:20

Yeah. No, I would agree. Wholeheartedly. Because okay, so let's take it back to a very black and white example. Your your grandmother committed suicide. Yeah. That's pretty final. There's there's not going to be a change in behavior, there's not going to be a change in outcome. There's there's nothing that can really change about that except you. Right. So how do you offer forgiveness for something you're just stuck with?

SPEAKER_01: 16:49

Yeah. Okay, great. So I mean, to me, maybe you just answered the question for me, really, is that you know, to forgive my grandmother, it came down to seeing the good qualities, appreciating the good times, and seeing the humanity in her. Now, that's a pretty dark thing, that's a little different than some other things that might be going on. However, I think that can be applied and almost has to be if you're going to move on from it or at least cope with it, however you want to look at it. Right. Because to me, a recurring behavior, you're coping with it. Right. You're not, you're not um moving on from that. You can't move on from something that continues to be an issue. Yeah. So it comes down to, hey, what are the good qualities of this person? What are the positives they're contributing to my life, to other lives? Because again, nobody's perfect. No. So it comes down to, okay, I have to accept whatever this person is capable of or willing to do. And if they contribute something of value and importance to other aspects of our lives, then I think we have to almost adjust our own expectations and thinking. Um and now where's the balance there? That's the trouble.

SPEAKER_00: 18:11

Yeah, because I mean I can go to, you know, uh a more recent I was leading you into that. Yeah, a more recent relationship in that, you know, um this person was, you know, uh, I mean, it got argumentative for a portion of the relationship, which, you know, all relationships are a little bit of ups and a little bit of downs. Um, but in in this particular instance, it was an extended period of time, and when there were issues, you know, it was spotty at best that I would get the verbal accountability of, oh, I'm sorry. So you wouldn't even get verbal accountability. Not a lot, very not always. Um, like I said, there was a lot more argument arguing going on than problem solving. Uh and and you know, that was where I started to just have to walk away from situations which to her, I'm sure, felt like abandonment. Right. Felt like I wasn't, you know, staying in. But this is the thing. It's like you you go through any kind of therapy and people talk about, well, when things get heated, you have to be able to put a pin in it and walk away from it till you know emotions have come down.

SPEAKER_01: 19:40

And 'cause arguments can become constructive in those head spaces.

SPEAKER_00: 19:44

Yeah. Um but but a lot of times, you know, that really is defined by perspective. True. For me, I'm walking away to preserve a peace and to hold on to civility. And to the other person, I'm just walking away. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 20:02

So they don't give you that grace. Huh? They're not giving you the grace to understand, hey, right, this is his process to make sure he can come back and we can have a constructive conversation. Yep. Yeah. Okay. So what was what would be the other individual's approach to um compromising in that situation? What? So like you're saying you would walk away in arguments. What was what was this individual's um approach to or did they have one?

SPEAKER_00: 20:32

Well, the the approach ended up being, oh, well, how come you get to end the argument? How come you get to say when it's enough? How come you get to like it was a control tactic instead? It wasn't gonna work. Well, it was more baiting into more arguments. So um and and where I was going with all of this is that you know, this person, you and I both know this person very well. And she is a class act, beautiful soul, very, very sweet, very much cares about other people, has her own damage, obviously, you know. I mean, we've all been through trauma, right? Um, but with her, uh she in certain situations where she feels like something is someone is being critical of her specifically, you know, not not just critiquing or, you know, asking for what you need, to her, it would come across as being critical. Right. And when that happened, it was never an acceptance, it was very rarely an acceptance. And that accountability piece of, oh, I'm sorry. Uh a lot of times it was said sarcastically, oh, I'm so sorry. And see, that's that's uh we we all know that's not a real sorry, but the times that it was a real sorry, um, that I genuinely felt that apologetic nature come through, yeah, there was no follow-through. And so it just happened again and again and again. Right and again. And at a certain point, you know, we're all familiar with boundaries. You put up a boundary and say, hey, look, I'm no longer going to allow access to X or whatever, right? Right. And, you know, that's just upping the ante on abandonment for somebody who already feels that. Yeah. So uh, I mean, again, this stuff is uh therapy speak and whatnot is useful in as much as it serves your um event, you know, whatever's going on. Sure. But it's definitely going to be labeled through perspective. Yep. So when we're talking about forgiveness, right? Um if you're in a relationship with somebody, they do something to you, um, and you're they're like, oh, I'm so sorry. You immediately want to forgive this person, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. But then if you don't set a boundary for the next time it happens, you're allowing it to happen.

unknown: 23:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 23:21

They don't and so it's this, you know, what what's that oroboros, the snake eating itself? Yeah. Like it just can't you're eyes.

SPEAKER_01: 23:30

But then, okay, so this person keeps doing the behaviors, they take accountability that, hey, I'm doing this behavior. Right. Whether they say they'll change it or not, let's be real, this person probably won't. If we can see the pattern, it's not going to change. So the boundary isn't necessarily you put a boundary on this person. I think you have to put a boundary mentally or emotionally almost on yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 23:57

Well, and that's the best way to describe it. Being able to say, well, this is what I will accept and this is what I won't accept. That's a boundary. Is a boundary, but it depends on perspective, sure, could be um cold shoulder. You know, could be, yeah, you know, I'm I'm going to turn my back on you.

SPEAKER_01: 24:22

Yeah. Yeah. I I and I think it depends on the dynamic of that relationship. I know certain um friends in my life, there have been very stark um boundaries where I've just been like, all right, I'm done with you because you're not reciprocating anything back to me. So it's just look, I love you, but I'm done. I'm done being hurt by you. So that boundary to that individual or those individuals is a hard cut. Yeah. But it's in your court now.

SPEAKER_00: 24:51

Sometimes it very much serves the greater good to go no contact.

SPEAKER_01: 24:57

And really is having your peace. Right. Because you know what, they don't seem to be worried about it anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 25:03

Well, I don't know that I've ever truly forgiven anybody who's hurt me on a level where I needed forgiveness. Because mostly what I've had to do is walk away from it. Right, right. You know, when I when I look at relationships, and let's say one person wrongs another. Yeah. I mean, I think I know how you are about this, but to me, accountability is not hard. If I know that I have fucked up, I will be front and center to apologize. And then my next thought is, okay, how do I not hurt this person again? Because I genuinely care about them. Exactly. Now, that's the person you care about. There are Karen's in the world, obviously, that that interact with us as well. Sure. And and so the other approach is, I mean, I don't give a fuck about you. So why would I I mean, I'll say I'm sorry because I certainly don't just walk around hurting people. But why do I have to go out of my way to rectify? Well, and that's the thing is if there isn't value in the relationship, I guarantee I'm not gonna bend over backwards to atone for someone who's so, you know. Obliv on your radar. Right, NPC. Yeah. Non-player character in my life.

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

Normally I just kill NPC.

SPEAKER_00: 26:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:31

I mean, Grand Theft Auto.

SPEAKER_00: 26:33

I'm just seeing your videos.

SPEAKER_01: 26:35

You know, yeah, you have.

SPEAKER_00: 26:37

I'm just gonna get rid of this guy. Blap.

SPEAKER_01: 26:39

Yeah, I mean, it's what they're there for. You just no.

SPEAKER_00: 26:42

Yeah. But but but I think there are two, there's those. Okay, those are the two like black and white versions of that. And there's of course spectrum in the middle of that. But you have to think about what your expectations can be based on the relationships. The strength and the and the dynamic of relationships. I mean a friendship, a marriage, a relationship. I've I think my thing, like like I said, I don't think that I've ever really forgiven anyone, which I'm gonna have to go do some work and unpack a few things on that one. Um so much to unpack from this podcast. But the people yeah, but the people who really don't matter, it's really just a fuck you and I let it go. Yeah. Because I won't give them access, right? Right. So so that's how you protect yourself from those people. And that's really what you're trying to do with forgiveness too. Yeah. But is it genuinely forgiveness if you just walk away from it?

SPEAKER_01: 27:44

I mean, are okay, let's even say, are humans capable of true forgiveness?

SPEAKER_00: 27:50

I think that's an excellent positive. I I don't know. I mean, okay, because you you have to have two highly developed people to end in what we customarily call forgiveness. But if you if you, the listener, think back over your life, and the deepest hurts are from the people who are closest to us. Which probably are gonna be for the most part. Okay, so those are the people you want to forgive because you genuinely care about these people and you genuinely love them. Right. How many of those people stepped up with um accountability? Step one, yeah. Right? They said, I'm sorry, which is the easier of the two, and so many people struggle with just that. Accountability for most people is uncomfortable, which which kills because we're all human beings, we're all fallible, we're all heir to God. I know. So why is it such a leap for you to turn to someone you say you care about? And I believe probably do. And apologize and take ownership of the fact that you hurt this person. Even if you have to express in the same breath, I certainly did not mean to hurt you, but I take full responsibility for the fact that I did.

SPEAKER_01: 29:04

That's I mean, I would think at least that would be a natural thing to do. It it's a it and it like you said, it's step one.

SPEAKER_00: 29:12

Right. That is that is that has to be step one. The first step. Because essentially you're outlining that you recognize there's a problem. Yep. I caused this problem. It is now on me to take this and do something with it. And do something about it, right? Atonement. Atonement, thank you. I knew it was another A-word, but no, atonement to take that to the next step and genuinely make amends with someone, I feel like it's once someone has made amends that that's when forgiveness happens.

unknown: 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:45

Because you're like, oh, I see the change. Yeah. That's forgiveness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:49

I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 29:50

Don't think it's forgiveness without that piece.

SPEAKER_01: 29:52

I agree. I think it it takes the the effort from the other person to atone before true forgiveness can happen. Because if that person doesn't, if that person doesn't adjust the behavior, right, then what are you gonna say?

SPEAKER_00: 30:06

I think we're gonna have to come I've I've come up with a new term. Okay. So you've got forgiveness and then you've got forgetness. Forgetness? Forgetness, yes. I forgetness you.

SPEAKER_01: 30:17

TM. TM Tony. Trademark. Trademark Tony. T T M. Yeah. TMT. It's dynamite. Oi. Oi. Okay. Uh you know what's interesting though? Is um, no, we mentioned taking accountability is the first step. Here's my thing.

SPEAKER_00: 30:35

I think I can overlook accountability for atonement. If somebody atones, I don't need an I'm sorry, just correct the behavior. Yeah. As long as I don't hear I'm sorry you feel that way.

SPEAKER_01: 30:49

Uh oh yeah, don't get me sharp. Yeah, fuck you with that shit. There's forgiveness, forgetness, and fucking muteness. Um, the three Fs of forgiveness. But I do like that forgetness, though.

SPEAKER_00: 31:03

I like that because I think that's that's what most of us do. There you go, forgetness.

SPEAKER_01: 31:09

But you know, that's the thing, is I think I couldn't live with the bitch, so I forgetness to her. No.

SPEAKER_00: 31:14

I like it. I like it. Yeah. No, that was not very good.

SPEAKER_01: 31:17

Uh we'll do better.

SPEAKER_00: 31:19

It's a little, I mean, it's a little gender war-ish. Yeah, we're not doing that, remember? No, we're not doing that. Not on this sense.

SPEAKER_01: 31:24

We are not doing that. I think forgiveness, forgetness, fuck her, fuck himness, whatever the fuck we came up with. Leave all that behind in order to move on or to cope, right?

SPEAKER_00: 31:38

That person won't adjust the behavior. Well, and and let's talk about that for a second, too. Because ultimately, that is what the forgiveness slash forgetness path is. Yeah. Is an ability to cope with some hurt, some harm. Whether it's one that's done.

SPEAKER_01: 31:56

Whether one, whether it's one that continues to repeat itself or one that was so bold in the past. Yeah. Like yours. Yeah. That you can't just throw that shit away. Nope.

SPEAKER_00: 32:09

Not really. Nope. So, I mean, deeper hurts like that definitely don't just go away. And I don't care what anybody says about time. Was it time heals all wounds? Time heals all wounds. I I think Maybe if you develop Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's? Alzheimer's disease. Alzheimer's disease, that might do it. I I feel like, you know, and and I put the the F word out there. I feel like I don't think a wound so deep, you know, like I don't know how you could ever say your last recollection of your grandmother could be something you could heal.

SPEAKER_01: 32:53

I don't think I can fully heal from it. But again, it I think there's reframing to that one. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 33:00

And and I think time with reframing oh, it's taken can build a cottage over the top of the big bloody mess. Right. Literally. But you know what's inside the cottage. Sure. Sure. You know, and it it really is mental gymnastics to get yourself to be able to cope. I mean, again, it's coming on 15 years.

SPEAKER_01: 33:23

Yeah, no small order there. And I'm still, like I said, I think about every day, and it was a wee I was young. So, I mean, that's the thing, is that it's taken this long, and I've worked on this for years at this point. And I can't tell you what the actual breakthrough truly was. Like, truly, I think probably it is time is part of it. And approaching it through music was a part of it, but being in a mindset where I could had to also be part of it. I'm not so sure this podcast didn't contribute a lot to that as well. Just talking about it and and getting feedback and things. So this podcast did a number on me. I mean, honestly, uh I found therapeutic benefit in doing this, and there's also been times where honestly it it's it's been a challenge because of what we've talked about and maybe brought some things to light that I'm like, well, fuck myself over this. So, and that's what this is all really meant to be, truly, is to challenge people, validate, and everything in between. Um and not judge. That's the big one, and which is hard. It's hard not to judge, um, no, especially kind of over these hurts if we want to tie that in.

SPEAKER_00: 34:31

Yeah. Uh no, no judgment. The only judgment is when people use their uh diagnosis as an excuse, right? I've got a big pet peep about that. That's a big pet peep for my friend here. Um, but yeah, I think, and that's one of the harms I think therapy has actually done, not to introduce a whole new fresh topic, but just the idea that there's so much terminology and so many ways that you can be a victim in something, and to not really truly look at this forgiveness piece and look at the fact that it is a coping mechanism, right? You are trying to help people get through something, not immerse them in it, not stick them in it, not turn them into a victim. Right. Right. Therapy should be something that helps you move through, move past to give you the ability to hopefully regain some level of higher functioning without, you know, past harms pulling you down every day. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 35:35

So forgiveness is about coping, not forgetting.

SPEAKER_00: 35:38

Well, and it's it's interesting that we've, you know, gone about this for almost a year now, and we're just now getting around to talking about forgiveness as an episode. Like honestly, I've been struggling with that in in a several aspects of my life. But if you think about it, that's why people go to therapy. Ultimately, almost other people. Right. Forgive yourself, forgive the past, forgive your partner, forgive like it's it really is truly the story arc of therapy is we start here and we end in forgiveness. Yeah. The ability to cope because we can move past some things. Right. But I don't think any of us have really had a deep conversation, and I don't think I ever thought about it before tonight. The idea of forgetness not equating forgiveness.

SPEAKER_01: 36:35

Yeah, I mean, I've thought that for a long time.

unknown: 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:37

I very much never align the same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 36:40

I mean, I can remember being a kid and my parents outlining hey, if you hold on to this, you're the one who is harmed. Right? So you have to forgive. Right. And that allows you freedom. You're allowed to move past this then.

SPEAKER_01: 37:00

What's hard about that for me is the fact that then you're letting that person win. It does. They get away with God, I can remember thinking the same thing. Oh, it is to me. It's like, oh, okay. Well, they get to keep that behavior. You can't let's say they're out of your life now. You keep get to be a bastard, and I just gonna And I get to, I just have to be like, okay, well, it's like, A, um, that's not fair to the person who was wronged. Forgive them, father. They not know how they know not what they do. Yeah. Um But the other thing is You and your religion. Do they deserve it?

SPEAKER_00: 37:39

Oh, hell no, they don't. But that's the thing is you're you're sold a bill of goods that says you deserve to forgive them. Yeah, they turn it on its head, don't they? Which is a bit of a mind fuck. It really truly isn't forgiveness. I've had we'll say two really big hurts in my life, and then a third who was just a pecker. She was just a fuckhead, you know. I I mean, I don't think she could have done better where she was at, right? But, you know, yeah as a neurotypical you you could fucking do better for sure. Yeah. So, but those three people, and I think about my forgiveness, and I'm putting air quotes out there for those of you not watching, the forgiveness that I offered them is really just putting it in a canister and sending it to the back room and not working through it, not getting any level of accountability or any level of atonement at all from these people. So as we sit here, I don't know if I can call it forgiveness. I agree, yeah. Especially recently, I have had a lot of daydreaming about having confrontational moments where oh, yeah, a little uh what do they call that? Peruvian necktie. That's it. That's the one. Yeah, yeah. Um, but no, it just it it amazes me, you know, and I think it's only gotten worse. I think relationships have gotten so juxtaposed. If you're a male, you see it a certain way. If you're a female, you see it a certain way. Yeah, and those no longer align. Not at all. Not at all. Yeah, okay. So let's talk about this. We have the three brains, right? We've talked about you've got your cerebral, you've got your heart. And your penis. And no.

unknown: 39:51

You fucker.

SPEAKER_00: 39:52

Yeah, that was actually really good. Yeah, men have four. No, but you get so you've got your brain, you got your heart, you got your your gut, your stomach, right? Intuition. Right. I think at the intuition level, and sometimes at the heart level, depending upon how developed the person is. But regardless, I think at gut level, people know. Yeah. You know, yeah. Like you know when you've hurt somebody, even if you both just dance around it and you don't, oh yeah, it it's kicking. Around in there.

SPEAKER_01: 40:23

You can't have an intimate relationship with somebody. So here's the question: Is you know, you obviously, as you mentioned, have had a relationship for 20-some years. Is it okay that she only leaves it here? Are you okay with it that it probably stayed here? Does it bother you that she would not have okay, you guys divorced, that was so many years ago? I don't think you can call it forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00: 40:52

But I think by and large. If you put those two things on a, you know, out of a hundred, right? I think you might be lucky to have 10% be true forgiveness. Like lucky to have 10%. Yeah. The other 90% is gonna be forgetness. You're gonna have to just tuck it away. People aren't gonna take accountability for it. They're gonna call you crazy. You know, they're gonna tell you you're imagining it or you made it up. Being dramatic. Or you did right. You're just being forgiven.

SPEAKER_01: 41:27

You're just being dramatic or blowing out of proportion. So, you know. Maybe we can't actually break it around to I I think a lot of forgiveness is gonna come down, I mean, obviously, to ourselves, but it it may not look like what it's thrown out there, you know, as the the romanticized version version of forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00: 41:47

Oh, I feel so much better. You've just you've you've healed me.

SPEAKER_01: 41:50

Yeah, that shit don't. That doesn't exist. No. So I think the work isn't I don't think you can expect the other person to do the work. Now, if they do, wonderful. And I there are people who do it, and like I said, maybe 10%. Yeah, and and and you know, certain relationships, there may be some things that give and some things that don't. You know, it doesn't always have to be black and white that way either.

SPEAKER_00: 42:14

Okay, and and I'm just gonna throw this out there for for any of our married listeners. I mean, imagine your relationship. Oh, you know, and and you know, everybody goes through ups and downs, right? But if you can get to a place where you and your partner are so in tune that you understand that, oh, even if I didn't do this purposely to hurt you, I can easily take accountability by just saying, oh, my bad. I'm sorry, I genuinely never meant to hurt you. Right. And then if you had the trust in your relationship to know that your partner was then going to do better, like talk about immediately strengthening your relationship. Yeah, absolutely. To really truly introduce forgiveness into a relationship, yeah, like the ability to forgive each other, not forget. That's the ultimate trust to me. Absolute ultimate trust. To know that if you hurt me, I know that you are truly going to try better next time. I agree. I I think that is one of the ultimate. I think that's actually really, really solid takeaway. Uh I agree. I think I'm gonna have to try that in my next relationship. Next one. Yes. There you go. I think it would be a really great talking point. You know, I mean, not everybody wants to lay down and, you know, like, oh, hey, babe, it's the end of the day. Let's have a talk about our relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 43:47

Oh, I agree with you. And and the other thing is I firmly believe in couples therapy. I think that can be an excellent thing. The problem is for you, not for me. I'm just kidding. I argue that couples therapy is is good for about every couple as long as both parties go in willing to take accountability for their side in it.

SPEAKER_02: 44:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:08

You gotta be honest. You have to. Yeah. Because I personally know a couple of couples who have done couples therapy, and one of them immediately stopped because they were too uncomfortable. Too many. Actually, I think both of these couples had this happen. Um, they were too uncomfortable with the uh realities or or whatever of that issue.

SPEAKER_00: 44:32

Oh no, I I I myself I've had a I had a partner who the the therapist had had known me for maybe 20 minutes and described me as love wrapped in frustration. And then the rest of the the appointment, the therapist proceeded to point out the things that this person, her client, had been doing to me just in the you know 20-some minutes that she had talked with us, and we never went back ever. Really and that comes down to the whole juxtaposition of Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which anyway. You don't listen to the fish to learn how to catch fish. That's right. You learn how to escape the nets. Yeah, I just don't think that that's ever gonna get solved. I think we really just need to come to the middle. So the idea is that oh, we're all fucking people. I have my frustrations with women as a man. Right. But as a thinking person, I know that we're gonna have to come together and you know, not to be together on the cracker. Cheeky not to be cheeky about it, but ultimately we really are going to have to forgive and then equally take accountability and perform atonement so that we can heal those issues and move forward.